Centennial Oral Histories:
Carmichael Roberts

00:00:19:10 – 00:00:50:22

Ann Pelham

I’m here with Carmichael Roberts. My name is Ann Pelham. We serve on the Duke Board of Trustees together, and Carmichael is the vice chair. He also has other roles at Duke. He’s on the Duke University Health System Board of Trustees. He has two degrees from Duke and spent nine years here, earning not just an undergraduate degree in Chemistry, but also a PhD in Chemistry.

00:00:50:22 – 00:00:57:18

Ann Pelham

Actually, I should make sure I’m being accurate. Was your major as an undergraduate chemistry?

00:00:57:19 – 00:01:00:16

Carmichael Roberts

You know what, it absolutely was chemistry.

00:01:00:22 – 00:01:04:16

Ann Pelham

And how did you get interested in chemistry?

00:01:04:18 – 00:01:19:22

Carmichael Roberts

You know, it’s an interesting story on this one. I’ll try to keep this one short. So I don’t know if Duke still does this, but as freshmen we had these freshmen advisors. Faculty members. You have to think, I’m 18 years old and like freshmen around that age.

00:01:20:02 – 00:01:23:15

Ann Pelham

You’re from Queens, right? First person in your family to go to college?

00:01:23:19 – 00:01:38:02

Carmichael Roberts

Yes. First person in my family to go to college. I didn’t have any kind of background [that prepared me for] here’s what college is going to be like. So originally I’m from New York and born in Queens, Brooklyn. Went to high school in Long Island. And so I claim all three locations.

00:01:38:02 – 00:01:39:02

Ann Pelham

That’s smart.

00:01:39:04 – 00:01:54:20

Carmichael Roberts

So I end up, I was on work-study. And my work-study was a serious work-study. This was how I was paying for my books. And so this was the deal I have with my parents. [I was] paying for the books and a couple other things.

00:01:54:22 – 00:02:14:17

Carmichael Roberts

So I get on campus. Two or three weeks go by. I totally lost track of the fact that I needed to go get a job to get the money from the work-study. So I ended up with my freshman advisor, Dr. [Richard] Palmer from the Chemistry department. And Dr. Palmer didn’t have a lot of freshman advisory years.

00:02:14:18 – 00:02:36:18

Carmichael Roberts

This was his time that he had to do it. He had mostly graduate students. So I’m effectively a high school student sitting across from this professor who mostly had [advisees] post-undergrad. And he goes through the list and says, “Well, Carmichael looks like, you know, how’s your roommate?” “He’s great.” “I’m looking through your food [list].” “Ah, food’s great.”

00:02:36:19 – 00:02:38:00

Carmichael Roberts

[Laughs]

00:02:38:02 – 00:02:38:07

Ann Pelham

[Laughs]

00:02:38:07 – 00:02:54:01

Carmichael Roberts

He’s like, “Great.” Check. “You’re doing well with your classes. You’re [doing] fine in everything? “Oh, yeah. It’s great.” Check. “Listen, it’s like a doctor’s office, it’s a clean bill of health. I don’t see anything else I can help you with.” And I said, “There’s one thing, Dr. Palmer. I know it’s a little bit odd, but I need a job.”

00:02:54:02 – 00:03:08:23

Carmichael Roberts

And he starts to laugh, and I laugh a little bit. And he kind of sees it in my eyes. He goes, “You’re serious, aren’t you?” And I said, “Well yeah, I’m serious. I got on campus. I’m excited. The jobs at the Bryan Center are all gone. And jobs here and there, they’re all gone. I don’t even know where to look right now.

00:03:08:23 – 00:03:24:23

Carmichael Roberts

And I really need a job for my books.” And he said, “Well, honestly son, you’re a high school student and I teach graduate students, not even undergrads. I’m just doing this one little thing here.” And I said, “Well, you asked, and I answered.” He said, “I’ll tell you what. I’ve got a question for you. Do you know how to wash dishes?”

00:03:25:01 – 00:03:47:06

Carmichael Roberts

I said, “What?” And he says to me, you know, “Did your folks teach you how to wash dishes?” Now it just so turns out, Ann, that I’m a phenomenal dishwasher. Like, I’m proud of that. My kids would even say it. To this day, I don’t use the electric dishwasher. I’m kind of old school. I do it [by hand]. So I said, “Yeah.” I’m thinking, “Oh my God, I’m going to wash dishes.”

00:03:47:07 – 00:04:02:23

Carmichael Roberts

And he said, “Well listen, in the chemistry lab we have round bottom flask petri dishes, we’ve got spatulas, we’ve got Erlenmeyer flasks. And my students tell me all the time that I’m spending way too much time getting the glassware squeaky clean. How about I give you a job in my lab washing dishes?”

00:04:03:01 – 00:04:04:01

Ann Pelham

Huzzah! There you go.

00:04:04:01 – 00:04:27:23

Carmichael Roberts

And that introduced me to the chemistry department. And those graduate students, after about a month or two, they stopped having me wash the dishes, and they started to have me help with their experiments. And so by the time I was done with my first semester [of] freshman year, even though I was still kind of like a high school student, I was learning experimental techniques at a graduate level. All because of my job.

00:04:28:01 – 00:04:42:20

Carmichael Roberts

I fell in love with that group and those graduate students. The professor, Dr. Palmer, was awesome. And just due to the circumstances I said, “This is kind of like my tribe.” And I became a chemistry major.

00:04:42:22 – 00:04:45:05

Ann Pelham

And then you went on to get your PhD?

00:04:45:07 – 00:05:10:04

Carmichael Roberts

Yeah. So, I went from washing dishes to, at the end, being able to be a faculty member. Eight and a half years later, I was really in a situation where a lot of people on my thesis committee said, “Look, you absolutely could be a professor here or anywhere.” And it was largely through the whole experience I had in chemistry, from A to Z, at Duke.

00:05:10:06 – 00:05:30:12

Ann Pelham

I think the opportunity to be in the lab with all those students couldn’t have hurt. You had a community of people who had your back and introduced you to something that became the love of your life. Of course, until you became an entrepreneurial capitalist [laughs].

00:05:30:12 – 00:05:31:12

Ann Pelham

[Crosstalk]

00:05:31:14 – 00:05:49:16

Carmichael Roberts

I am an entrepreneurial capitalist, [and] a lot of people get that wrong. My kids sometimes say to me, my nephews and nieces and my own kids, “Dad, we don’t like capitalism.” I say, “You do realize, technically people look down today at venture capitalists.” “Oh no, I know, Dad. But we’re not talking about what you do.”

00:05:49:16 – 00:06:07:03

Carmichael Roberts

I go, “No, unabashedly listen to me. I am a capitalist, but I’m an entrepreneurial capitalist. We create products and businesses that do good, but they also create jobs, and they help drive the economy. I’m really proud of that.” And so absolutely, entrepreneurial capitalism.

00:06:07:05 – 00:06:35:08

Ann Pelham

So we’re supposed to be talking about Duke. But to me, the interesting part of your story is how you got from almost being a professor of chemistry, having been at Duke all these years, to where you are today. Which is an entrepreneurial capitalist. And you wear lots of hats. But before we get into all that, your experiences at Duke as an undergraduate. You shared a little bit.

00:06:35:10 – 00:06:44:17

Ann Pelham

But as you look back on your years here, are there particular experiences that stand out? Such as, maybe, when you met your wife?

00:06:44:19 – 00:06:50:06

Carmichael Roberts

Oh, yeah. Let me bring that up. So [crosstalk] someone asks me, what was the most important thing that happened at Duke? 

00:06:50:07 – 00:06:51:18

Ann Pelham

I just didn’t want you to miss that.

00:06:51:21 – 00:07:16:19

Carmichael Roberts

I’m not going to miss that. I met [my now wife] Sandra [Park]. Actually, the interesting thing [going] back to that graduate school time period [is that when] she and I really started to, quote unquote date was not right away, it was later in my grad school. I tutored chemistry.

00:07:16:21 – 00:07:39:00

Carmichael Roberts

So I gave you the story of how I got introduced to chemistry. Now, that lab happened to be inorganic chemistry. And for those who may say, “Well, what was that versus other chemistry?” Inorganic are things like semiconductor materials. So think about an Intel Pentium chip, or processors, so and so forth.

00:07:39:01 – 00:07:44:00

Carmichael Roberts

Eventually I took that key class at Duke.

00:07:44:02 – 00:07:44:16

Ann Pelham

Organic.

00:07:44:17 – 00:08:10:16

Carmichael Roberts

Organic. Right. And I had a phenomenal set of professors, but particularly I was moved by Pelham Wilder. And you and I both obviously know Sterly [Wilder], his daughter, really well. But it was Dr. Wilder who I knew first in that family. And he was a tremendous mentor. A Harvard alum, proud Harvard alum, would always tell me stories about, “Maybe one day,

00:08:10:16 – 00:08:32:18

Carmichael Roberts

Carmichael, you should go and look at organic chemistry at Harvard.” And that organic chemistry class — I ended up doing well in organic chemistry. And all my friends said, “Oh, man. You’re set. You can go to medical school.” I said “No, I actually want to do chemistry.” So when I got into grad school, I remembered how stressful it was for all the undergrads in organic chemistry.

00:08:32:18 – 00:08:53:05

Carmichael Roberts

And I said [that] if I could do one thing to kind of hone my teaching capability, it would be helping some of the most stressed students deal with organic chemistry and make it a little more fun. Make it where it wasn’t such a torturous thing between their dreams and reality.

00:08:53:06 – 00:08:57:22

Ann Pelham

Well if they didn’t do well, they weren’t going to go to medical school. Isn’t that the torture part?

00:08:57:22 – 00:09:14:12

Carmichael Roberts

That’s the torture part. And so, coming back to Sandra, I ended up doing a tutoring program. And to make a long story short with this part, the program got very large when people realized, “Oh, there’s one of us in the graduate school. He’s a Duke undergrad who knows

00:09:14:12 – 00:09:27:07

Carmichael Roberts

these classes, and he’s in the school, and he’s offering these tutoring sessions [for free].” And I was doing some of this stuff for free. Actually, I’ll come back to that. [It was free] at the beginning, and then eventually I ended up charging.

00:09:27:08 – 00:09:29:05

Ann Pelham

I hope so.

00:09:29:05 – 00:09:43:13

Carmichael Roberts

$1. $1 per hour per student. And actually I’ll say it again, it was Pelham Wilder who told me that. He said to me [to charge something]. He told me. He was so right. At the time I had 18, 19 students.

00:09:43:19 – 00:09:44:12

Ann Pelham

That’s a lot.

00:09:44:15 – 00:10:03:22

Carmichael Roberts

And it was a lot. And he said, “Carmichael, let me talk to you, son. Let me tell you. You really should charge something, because they’re not going to pay attention to it the way they would if they just paid a little something to it.” And that really bugged me, right? He turned out to be so right.

00:10:03:22 – 00:10:18:16

Carmichael Roberts

But it bothered me because I’m thinking, “That’s not why I’m doing it.” But he said, “No, but you’re doing it so that they learn. And so you’ve got to get past that. Trust me.” This is back to me learning a little entrepreneurial capitalism, if you will. So he said, “Look, charge them a dollar.

00:10:18:16 – 00:10:19:18

Ann Pelham

[Crosstalk]

00:10:19:20 – 00:10:39:13

Carmichael Roberts

It’s not so much that it would make a difference. And if you really do find a student or two that you think that does a hardship on them, let it go. Don’t worry about it. But just do this.” So as soon as I changed to a dollar, I went from 18 students to 63 students in two months.

00:10:39:15 – 00:10:41:10

Ann Pelham

How did you tutor that many students?

00:10:41:11 – 00:10:45:00

Carmichael Roberts

Well, here comes Sandra, right? So what ends up happening is I’ve got…

00:10:45:01 – 00:10:45:09

Ann Pelham

Oh.

00:10:45:09 – 00:11:07:06

Carmichael Roberts

I’ve got a buddy with me too. Scott Kent who was my good friend and my roommate. And the two of us split the tutoring duties up. But the key thing is just the operational logistics of taking attendance, making sure you’re taking notes to see who’s doing what, trying to personalize it. All I’m supposed to be doing is…

00:11:07:06 – 00:11:10:02

Ann Pelham

You went from a startup to a full corporation.

00:11:10:02 – 00:11:23:10

Carmichael Roberts

This is indicative of who I am. And so he said, “What if Sandra comes in?” To get somebody who’s not a chemistry student to help me logistically take attendance, get to know the students, let me know if someone’s having problems financially.

00:11:23:14 – 00:11:24:21

Ann Pelham

Paid her a dollar an hour, too.

00:11:24:22 – 00:11:28:11

Carmichael Roberts

We did. We gave her a 10% of whatever, right?

00:11:28:16 – 00:11:30:06

Ann Pelham

[Laughs]

00:11:30:12 – 00:11:38:08

Carmichael Roberts

But I was also really smart in this, this is one of the most clever things [in my life], right? Because I also met my wife as a result of this.

00:11:38:10 – 00:11:43:16

Ann Pelham

And you already liked her. You got to spend more time with her. And you actually made a business together.

00:11:43:18 – 00:11:49:16

Carmichael Roberts

Exactly, exactly. We’ve been doing that ever since, and [inaudible].

00:11:49:18 – 00:12:00:22

Ann Pelham

Well, since we’re on that topic, before we get back to the rest of this. You all are still married. You have three children. Almost everybody’s out of the house now? I’m trying to remember.

00:12:00:22 – 00:12:01:08

Carmichael Roberts

My youngest..

00:12:01:11 – 00:12:02:02

Ann Pelham

One more?

00:12:02:02 – 00:12:15:07

Carmichael Roberts

One more. My youngest is 18, she’ll be 19 next month. She did a gap year, so she’s out of high school and she’s been working. And she’s going to the University of Washington in Seattle next year.

00:12:15:09 – 00:12:38:23

Ann Pelham

Nice. Nice place to go. And you have a son, and then you have another daughter. Well, congratulations. That’s wonderful. And you live in Boston, and you didn’t get all your degrees at Duke. You went up to Harvard and had a postdoc with Dr. Whitesides.

00:12:39:00 – 00:12:56:13

Carmichael Roberts

George Whitesides, who’s one of my closest friends today. He’s [more than] 30 years older than me. And this does come back to Duke, I can tell you. So I’ve told you already about Dr. Palmer in the Chemistry Department, and I met him through my first formative years of being on campus. I told you about Dr. Wilder.

00:12:56:15 – 00:13:27:02

Carmichael Roberts

Pelham Wilder, who helped me — one, introduced me to chemistry; [two], introduced me to organic chemistry, which is what I got my PhD in, by the way. Organic chemistry. But the thing is, I stayed at Duke for grad school, as you mentioned, and you have a thesis committee. I was really fortunate. There was this professor who was relatively new in the department who got assigned to my thesis committee. Eric Toone.

00:13:27:04 – 00:13:48:20

Carmichael Roberts

And so Eric was on my committee. At that time he was Dr. Toone, Professor Toone. Another really, really good friend of mine today. And truth be told, Duke undergrad was hard for me. Meaning that I had a great time — love Duke — but I was underprepared, [with regards to] my background. You mentioned first 

00:13:48:22 – 00:14:19:10

Carmichael Roberts

to go to college, and you mentioned Queens, Brooklyn. And so again, not to go deep into the story, but when I looked at how many AP classes I took and didn’t take and so forth compared to my fellow classmates, especially people who actually said they’re going to major in chemistry, I was definitely on the underprepared side of things academically. But I think I learned a lot because I had to catch up. It’s sort of like starting a race.

00:14:19:10 – 00:14:36:08

Carmichael Roberts

If you’re running a mile four laps around a track, and someone has a half a lap to a lap head start on you, if you can figure out a way to even come close to finishing at the same moment. And then you go back and take a few months off, and you go back and start at the same exact time again.

00:14:36:10 – 00:14:45:09

Carmichael Roberts

What happens in that next race, right? Watch out. And so that was what grad school was like for me. So I went to grad school and it was just..

00:14:45:12 – 00:14:47:10

Ann Pelham

It wasn’t as hard at all. Just the opposite.

00:14:47:10 – 00:15:04:04

Carmichael Roberts

Just the opposite. I’m tutoring. I’m doing research. I mean, think about it. [Crosstalk] Yeah, exactly. I started as an 18-year-old learning graduate stuff. And so I was super prepared for grad school. Didn’t really know it, but I was.

00:15:04:06 – 00:15:07:05

Ann Pelham

Well you finished in what, four and a half years? Not eight.

00:15:07:05 – 00:15:21:14

Carmichael Roberts

Right, sometimes it can be much longer. So back over to Duke in terms of one of the things so I appreciated. Eric Toone is on my thesis committee, along with like 4 or 5 other people. And one day Eric pulls me aside and he says to me, “Carmichael, can I talk to you for a second?”

00:15:21:15 – 00:15:41:02

Carmichael Roberts

I said, “Yeah.” He said, “What are you doing after you get this PhD?” And I said, “Yeah, I know you guys talked to me about, you know, faculty and different things. It’s a really tough environment out there. And people are having a hard time getting jobs. And I think I can get a good job. I think I’m going to go get a good job, and then think about it later.”

00:15:41:04 – 00:15:58:09

Carmichael Roberts

And he said to me, “Can I give you a different set of advice?” You know, some advice to the contrary. I said, “Sure.” And he said, “I’m going to tell you, this was too easy for you. I watched you. I saw you from the time that I was on your committee, which picks up in your second year of grad school.”

00:15:58:11 – 00:16:17:00

Carmichael Roberts

And I said, “I had a blast, I learned a ton.” He said, “That’s not what I said. I know you had a good time, and I know you learned a lot. This was too easy for you, and I want you to challenge yourself and go somewhere where, in fact, it would be much more difficult.” Now the statement,

00:16:17:00 – 00:16:21:14

Carmichael Roberts

just to be clear, wasn’t a knock on Duke? 

00:16:21:16 – 00:16:23:01

Ann Pelham

It was just the situation.

00:16:23:01 – 00:16:41:20

Carmichael Roberts

It was the circumstance. [And] Eric was a faculty member at Duke, so clearly it wasn’t the caliber of the research. But I think he just could tell I was in this situation. So he said to me like, “Well what I want you to do now is we’re going to find a lab.

00:16:41:22 – 00:16:55:03

Carmichael Roberts

I want to find a lab for you to go to [where] there’s no way that’s going to be easy. It’s going to be really hard and you won’t be able to — back to the analogy of running track, I’ll just use that one. You won’t be able to run as fast. I don’t know how much exercise you do [but]

00:16:55:04 – 00:16:55:16

Carmichael Roberts

you won’t be able to.”

00:16:55:16 – 00:17:08:14

Ann Pelham

Carmichael, he also saw something in you there that he wanted to nurture. And he knew that you had the capacity to go around the track faster. Even at a postdoc lab.

00:17:08:14 – 00:17:28:10

Carmichael Roberts

And I really appreciated that about him. And I think in each case [of] each of those examples of these three professors, all in the Chemistry Department. Dr. Palmer, who had more of a blink response to invite me into his lab as an 18-year-old and allow me to evolve myself into an experimentalist, not just washing dishes.

00:17:28:12 – 00:17:53:18

Carmichael Roberts

Pelham Wilder, Dr. Wilder, who took it upon himself to be a mentor to me and encouraged me. And had the foresight to kind of say to me, “Organic chemistry at Harvard. I would love for you to blend the two together.” And then Eric Toone, who, same thing, but now with an even more confident,

00:17:53:18 – 00:18:11:10

Carmichael Roberts

capable, prepared version of myself. He saw the same thing. And I got all that from Duke. By the way, as you mentioned, I ended up going to Harvard in that Chemistry Department, working for George Whitesides. And it was Eric Toone who picked the phone up and called him up and said…

00:18:11:10 – 00:18:12:09

Ann Pelham

He knew him already.

00:18:12:09 – 00:18:38:14

Carmichael Roberts

He knew him already. And he said, “Hey, I’m going to ask you to do something a little bit crazy. I want to shock this guy a little bit, where he has no choice but to say yes. I want you to accept him immediately when he sends his application in.” And so I remember at that time [that particular year] George had gotten 1,300 or so applications for 3 or 4 spots.

00:18:38:16 – 00:18:45:21

Carmichael Roberts

And he said yes to me in less than 24 hours. So, let me correct myself. He said yes to Eric Toone.

00:18:45:21 – 00:18:49:16

Ann Pelham

[Laughs]

00:18:49:18 – 00:18:51:21

Carmichael Roberts

In less than 24 hours. 

00:18:51:22 – 00:18:53:07

Ann Pelham

Got your attention, didn’t it?

00:18:53:10 – 00:19:13:12

Carmichael Roberts

It did. It did. It just taught me a lot. First of all, like you said, what he must have seen in me. But also what it did is it taught me what you can do for somebody. I already knew that, but to put yourself out there and in each case to say, “It’s important; he’s important.

00:19:13:13 – 00:19:21:10

Carmichael Roberts

I’m going to take this risk.” Those were some of the things that, when we circle back to Duke, I’ll never forget.

00:19:21:12 – 00:19:28:13

Ann Pelham

Eric Toone is still in your life. And Dr. Whiteside is. You hang with people, Carmichael.

00:19:28:13 – 00:19:29:01

Ann Pelham

[Laughs]

00:19:29:05 – 00:19:31:00

Carmichael Roberts

Yeah, they’re stuck with me. Be careful I stuck my wife [to me].

00:19:31:01 – 00:19:44:20

Ann Pelham

How did you get from the lab with Dr. Whitesides? What is [his focus]? It’s nanotechnology, isn’t it?

00:19:44:20 – 00:20:08:08

Carmichael Roberts

Yes, he does nano. He’s a renaissance kind of guy. Nano is one of the things he’s known for more in the last 15 years or so. But George has done everything. Well let me tell you, talking about the transition. One of the most remarkable things was in that lab I watched his ability to focus on — one word he’d always use is simplicity.

00:20:08:08 – 00:20:30:17

Carmichael Roberts

He still [uses] it. If you think about Einstein, and you think about the brilliance of Einstein, a lot of it is just the simplicity. The way he could see very complicated things and distill them down into something really simple. An equation like E equals MC squared. George could do that all the time, and he would try to teach us to do that.

00:20:30:17 – 00:20:55:03

Carmichael Roberts

And if you can do that, Ann, then when you go to explain to someone why a particular product would make a big difference — no matter who it is, whether it’s you’re explaining to a nine-year- old or whether you’re explaining to someone in a government who’s like, “Hey, I have no background in this at all,” or whether you explain it to someone in a large company who may understand the application and the market but maybe not the technology and the product — if you can.

00:20:55:05 – 00:20:59:03

Carmichael Roberts

Let me say it the other way. If you cannot explain it,

00:20:59:05 – 00:21:00:03

Ann Pelham

Ok.

00:21:00:04 – 00:21:20:21

Carmichael Roberts

you’re at a huge disadvantage. And he taught us how to think, and how to do, and explain things in a simple manner. Which means you really had to understand what you were doing at another level, to be able to translate it. Again, when I used to teach organic chemistry [it was] the same thing. How can I demystify and deconvolute this and make it simple?

00:21:20:23 – 00:21:45:06

Carmichael Roberts

So when I was in that lab [I learned that] it turns out he and a lot of his peers, his good friends, they effectively built biotech in the United States. So if you think about some of the biggest biotech companies that even today, the ones that are still standing, haven’t been acquired, there were 30 to 50 professors, some of them concentrated in Boston, but they would collaborate a lot.

00:21:45:08 – 00:21:52:06

Carmichael Roberts

And they advised and consulted some of the larger pharma companies, but also built these biotech companies. So these are high net worth individuals.

00:21:52:08 – 00:22:15:07

Ann Pelham

But they also recognized that if they were going to get the funds to, I guess it’s bench to bedside or into a manufacturing setting, they needed to be able to explain what they were doing and to give their vision some language. Use some language to describe their vision that a funder could recognize.

00:22:15:08 – 00:22:15:12

Carmichael Roberts

That’s right.

00:22:15:14 – 00:22:16:03

Ann Pelham

I understand.

00:22:16:07 – 00:22:35:11

Carmichael Roberts

And they taught us that. And he specifically said to me, “Look, if you stay in academia and you become a professor, you’re an entrepreneur. You’ll be an academic entrepreneur. You can build things like we did, like we are doing.” And he introduced me into his network of people. I’ll never forget.

00:22:35:11 – 00:22:44:18

Carmichael Roberts

He said, “No matter what path you take, you need to go meet these people called venture capitalists. Do you know any of them?” I said, “I’ve heard of them. They sound scary.”

00:22:44:20 – 00:22:48:11

Ann Pelham

Just like organic chemistry did to those freshmen.

00:22:48:11 – 00:22:49:07

Ann Pelham

[Laughs]

00:22:49:09 – 00:23:08:08

Carmichael Roberts

Right, exactly. He said, “Carmichael, we’ve got to get you to meet some of these venture capitalists.” And as I mentioned, George had been part of building some of the largest companies in the space. And so these venture capitalists loved him because he was [saying], “What’s the next idea? What’s the next generation? What’s the next thing George Whiteside is going to do?”

00:23:08:08 – 00:23:20:03

Carmichael Roberts

So when I got introduced and he said, “This guy Carmichael, I want you to…” You know, similar to the way Eric Toone said, “This guy Carmichael, I want you to take him.”

00:23:20:05 – 00:23:22:07

Ann Pelham

So he took your arm.

00:23:22:07 – 00:23:42:00

Carmichael Roberts

He did. He did. He introduced me to his network of folks and, actually, I don’t think this was his intention, but it convinced me [to go] out of academia. And I’ll never forget he said to me, “You’re not going to have a problem. Every school that I talk to wants to interview you.

00:23:42:01 – 00:23:49:20

Carmichael Roberts

We’ll recruit you and give you an offer.” Again, just to be really clear, similar to the way George Whitesides said yes to Eric Toone.

00:23:49:20 – 00:23:50:06

Ann Pelham

[Laughs]

00:23:50:12 – 00:23:58:16

Carmichael Roberts

Those schools were seeing him and saying, “If [it’s] you saying so, then it’s so.”

00:23:58:18 – 00:24:02:01

Ann Pelham

You might be underselling yourself, but it doesn’t hurt to have help.

00:24:02:03 – 00:24:26:02

Carmichael Roberts

It doesn’t hurt. So he introduced me to venture capitalists and they felt the same way. They were going to talk to me a bit. And George saw, he said, “I could tell. You go spend more time.” It’s like, “Take six months, spend time trying to figure out what are some of the most important problems you want to solve as an academic entrepreneur or as an entrepreneur in general.”

00:24:26:04 – 00:24:33:11

Carmichael Roberts

And he gave me that freedom while I was still doing the experiments. But I did a lot of networking and talking.

00:24:33:15 – 00:24:36:15

Ann Pelham

Technically a postdoc, but an entrepreneur on the side.

,

00:24:36:16 – 00:24:57:06

Carmichael Roberts

You got it. And so I did a lot of that. And I found out, I remember one day one of these venture capitalists said to me, “We think about some of the ideas and stuff that you want to work on. And there’s no way if you go into academia that we’ll ever put any money into some of this stuff.”

00:24:57:12 – 00:24:58:04

Ann Pelham

Because why?

00:24:58:09 – 00:25:16:02

Carmichael Roberts

Well, they said to me, I’ll never forget it. They said to me, “We’re not going to get the right entrepreneurs to build some of the things that you want to do, and the way you want to do them.” And I started talking to more entrepreneurs and they were even like, “Yeah, we can’t really do what you do.”

00:25:16:04 – 00:25:28:11

Carmichael Roberts

And eventually one of the venture capitalists did me a big favor. He said, “Carmichael, you’ve got it half right. You’re convincing us that maybe we should put money into some of this stuff.” And I said, “Okay, I’ll take the bait. What’s the part I got half wrong?”

00:25:28:13 – 00:25:29:09

Ann Pelham

Yeah.

00:25:29:11 – 00:25:49:06

Carmichael Roberts

And they said, “Who you want to be.” And they recognized. We had very open conversations on just this matter, so bear with me. You know, of course I’m the only Black person in any of these conversations. And that’s the other thing I really appreciated, just the care and the mentorship that I was getting from all of these folks.

00:25:49:06 – 00:26:16:07

Carmichael Roberts

And so one of the guys sat me down and said, “I know it’s really rare to be a person in George Whiteside’s lab, period, let alone a person of color, who is on this kind of trajectory to be a professor. And far be it for us to get you off of that path.” But I’ll never forget, he said to me, “But the true scarcity in the equation right now, regardless of what gender or color [you are], what you know how to do. We don’t see people who know how to do that combination.”

00:26:16:07 – 00:26:41:22

Carmichael Roberts

I said, “Well, what is it?” “You speak fluent Whitesides, you speak fluent Toone, you speak fluent Wilder. You can talk as fluently as if you’re speaking Russian, and then turn around and translate to us, as if it was just as simple as can be. And that’s what’s going to be required for the kinds of things that you want to do.

00:26:41:22 – 00:27:08:10

Carmichael Roberts

And so the real scarcity in the equation is on the entrepreneurial side. And we are in the business — we can’t say who should be a professor — of spotting the entrepreneurs. And you’re rare. And so unless you’re really wedded to this academia thing, you would be really unusual on the entrepreneurial side.” And I remember coming home and talking to my wife about this and telling her that.

00:27:08:10 – 00:27:38:15

Carmichael Roberts

So I won’t repeat it. But the other part that I said is, “I think that’s who I am. I came to Boston to be a professor. And I found out I’m really an entrepreneur, as much as I still like teaching. But that’s part of it.” And so that got me into doing it. And the other part that was on my mind is the kinds of things I like to work on. You know this about me, Ann, but let me just say in general, the kinds of things I like to work on are, I’m not I’m not going to be the person who’s looking for the next app on

00:27:38:15 – 00:27:59:22

Carmichael Roberts

the iPhone. The iPhone is a very important product, don’t get me wrong. But the idea that I’m going to come up with the next app for the iPhone, it’s just not the kind of thing that I would do. I want to try to keep the world healthy, fed, warm, secure, powered, safe. Stuff where you say, “That’s what humanity needs.”

00:28:00:00 – 00:28:19:12

Carmichael Roberts

And so working on those kinds of problems appealed to me. I realized again that I’m going to be able to do that a lot more effectively as an entrepreneur on the ground. And I had this network of tremendous academic geniuses. Some of the younger people in that lab. Going back to Eric saying, “I want you to go somewhere where you’re going to really be challenged.”

00:28:19:13 – 00:28:29:16

Carmichael Roberts

Oh, he nailed it. I mean, the brilliance of not just those professors, but my peers who were the same age. And now I know, I have the data 20 to 30 years later.

00:28:29:18 – 00:28:31:00

Ann Pelham

What you believed came true.

00:28:31:00 – 00:28:48:01

Carmichael Roberts

Oh my gosh. Yeah, I mean there are some amazing [people]. Again, these are close friends, and they’re my network. They’re amazing. And many of them, we’ve done companies together. I realized that [I was] going to change this business model. Yeah, I’m an academic, but I’m an entrepreneur as well.

00:28:48:01 – 00:29:09:10

Carmichael Roberts

And I’m going to approach it from the outside and use that whole network of all the different universities, people who are scattered throughout in this country and outside. They’re going to be my idea flow. They’re going to be my problem solvers. And I spotted that early. And it started with me learning how to build companies, be a company builder.

00:29:09:12 – 00:29:28:05

Ann Pelham

And you eventually moved into venture capital. You got your own company — Material Impact. And not that long ago, maybe 2018, is when you connected with — or actually, when did you connect with Breakthrough Energy Ventures?

00:29:28:08 – 00:29:54:18

Carmichael Roberts

So let me say how I got into venture capital, and kind of break it down a little bit. You know, back to the irony. Remember I said I [had] to meet these people called venture capitalists? They sound[ed] scary. Who are they? And I mentioned already that along the way that one of the venture capitalists was one of the reasons why I went towards an entrepreneurial career, because he spotted something and pointed it out to me and it turned out to be right.

00:29:54:20 – 00:30:00:05

Carmichael Roberts

Then I went on to learn how to be a founder of companies, and I founded several companies.

00:30:00:05 – 00:30:04:00

Ann Pelham

I remember you talking about “my companies.” “I’ve been working on my companies.”

00:30:04:00 – 00:30:10:00

Carmichael Roberts

Yeah, I’m working on my companies. Right. I still am. I still call them my companies, even as an entrepreneurial capitalist.

00:30:10:00 – 00:30:12:07

Ann Pelham

It’s always plural. Most people just have one.

00:30:12:07 – 00:30:42:14

Carmichael Roberts

Oh yeah, exactly. Well, that’s what I’m going, Ann. So I learned how to be [a] CEO. Had failures that broke my heart. I had success that made me excited as can be. And [I’ve] done public stuff, private stuff, all sorts of things that I was able to do. [To get] to your point about having multiple companies, I had gotten into a role where at any given time, I was on 4 or 5 boards of things that I had co-founded. Other people running [were] them. And then maybe there’s one thing that I’m running, and I’m on the board of that, but I’m running it.

00:30:42:15 – 00:31:03:19

Carmichael Roberts

So I have my own portfolio. And one of my good friends came to me and said, “Carmichael, you should really think about coming and being a venture capitalist with us.” I said, “No way. That’s not what I do. That’s just not what I do.” He said, “Why not?” And I said, “I’ve always been the entrepreneur.

00:31:03:19 – 00:31:21:01

Carmichael Roberts

You guys are the VCs.” He said, “I want you to think a little more deeply. When you came in to raise money from us last time, what was it like?” I said, “We sat down and talked.” “Yeah, exactly. You sat down in a roundtable with us. We asked you what we should do. You described it to us, and we did it.

00:31:21:01 – 00:31:40:13

Carmichael Roberts

That’s not normal. Like we look at you like a partner. We really trust you. And there are other investments we’ve made in other companies that aren’t yours, that we brought you in to advise.” He said, “You’ve got a portfolio and you’ve had some financial success, but we have way more money in our funds than you have.”

00:31:40:15 – 00:31:41:12

Ann Pelham

[Inaudible]

00:31:41:12 – 00:32:00:06

Carmichael Roberts

[He said] “You could have a lot more leverage in doing more, not only with your companies, but also other people’s companies, if you help us manage some of this.” And all of that was key. And then he said the really important part. He said to me, “I want you to think about how you scale yourself.

00:32:00:08 – 00:32:27:14

Carmichael Roberts

You have all of these people coming to you wanting to do projects, and you’re turning them down largely because you are not on a platform that you [can help]. You’re running a company, an operating company.” And that got me, because I was sort of at a point in my career where I felt like the impact that I could have in teaching others to do what I do, the way I do it, would be a lot bigger than me doing the next thing in a serial fashion.

00:32:27:14 – 00:32:44:22

Carmichael Roberts

Even though I was trying to move a little parallel [in] having these [companies]. So back home, I go again and talk to my wife. Start thinking more deeply. And I realized I’m not being really thoughtful. I’ve kind of got this preconceived notion of what a venture capitalist is, but in fact, I can make it into whatever I want it to be.

00:32:45:00 – 00:33:01:07

Carmichael Roberts

And so I went back to my buddy and said, “You’re right.” And he said, “Oh, thank God. Okay. Good. You should come and be one of our partners.” And I got an opportunity to be a partner in a large venture capital firm. And they taught me a ton in that firm.

00:33:01:09 – 00:33:02:07

Ann Pelham

And you kept your companies.

00:33:02:11 – 00:33:18:05

Carmichael Roberts

And I kept my companies, and they let me — the other thing that they said to me [was], “We know what got you here. We don’t want you to change that. You are an entrepreneur. So we know what you’re going to do. You’re going to go and help people start and build companies. You’re not going to be a quote unquote finance person.

00:33:18:05 – 00:33:34:04

Carmichael Roberts

You’re not gonna be a finance guy. You’re going to be a real, true partner to these folks, and you’re going to roll your sleeves up and get close with them. And at times we’re going to have to try to pull you out because you’re so close to it with things that we want to make sure you’re objective. But we understand that.

00:33:34:06 – 00:33:54:21

Carmichael Roberts

But we also think that that’s where the world is going.” And I said, “What do you mean by that?” They said, “Well, think about you. You’ve gone from being a beggar to a chooser. It used to be that you would wonder who’s going to give you money to do your companies. And now people are wondering, is he going to take my money?

00:33:54:23 – 00:34:12:05

Carmichael Roberts

Am I going to be the one to be able to invest, as a beggar or chooser?” And the best entrepreneurs are choosers. And when they have to pick, who are they going to pick [who] they want to get money from. At some point if there’s no differentiator and it’s just money, I guess I can say who’s going to give me the best deal.

00:34:12:07 – 00:34:16:13

Carmichael Roberts

But really what they’re going to do is they’re going to pick and say, “Who’s going to give me the best help, who’s going to help me?”

00:34:16:13 – 00:34:17:03

Ann Pelham

Who’s going to be my partner?

00:34:17:03 – 00:34:36:22

Carmichael Roberts

Who’s going to be my partner? Who’s going to be indistinguishable from me, because they’re entrepreneurial like me. And this entrepreneur, she’s starting this company, who is she going to pick? Is she going to pick me, who has done multiple companies or is she going to pick a finance person who doesn’t really understand the hero’s journey that they’re on?

00:34:36:22 – 00:34:58:10

Carmichael Roberts

And that’s what got me into venture. So that whole thing got me into being a venture person, and then eventually I ended up starting my own firm from there, because I realized if I’m going to pour so much time into growing and learning and leading, it should be something that’s 100% focused on what I’m doing.

00:34:58:10 – 00:35:01:22

Ann Pelham

You refined your ability to choose even more.

00:35:02:00 – 00:35:02:17

Carmichael Roberts

Yeah.

00:35:02:19 – 00:35:04:16

Ann Pelham

And you got more than just the dollar.

00:35:04:21 – 00:35:06:22

Carmichael Roberts

Got more than just the dollar.

00:35:07:00 – 00:35:07:19

Ann Pelham

[Laughs]

00:35:07:21 – 00:35:28:17

Carmichael Roberts

Exactly. So that’s [how I started] Material Impact — with, by the way, another Duke alum. Another Duke alum. So, back to Duke. Let me tell you, you mentioned [me] meeting my wife at Duke. Well, I met my partner at Duke later. Adam Sharkawy. Adam is a graduate, a PhD in the Biomedical Engineering department.

00:35:28:19 – 00:35:55:01

Carmichael Roberts

And like me, he also was destined for an academic career, and for different sets of reasons diverted to become an entrepreneur. And Duke’s Engineering Department, particularly in biomedical engineering, set up a special advisory board, and they went and got a bunch of CEOs out of medical device [companies], big name folks who I always wanted to meet. And I was this 30-something entrepreneur.

00:35:55:03 – 00:36:12:01

Carmichael Roberts

And there were these 50-to-60 year old CEOs who were mostly EVPs of these big companies. They all knew each other. And they had decided on this advisory board [that they needed] to get two young people who are innovative on it. So they made the right choice in picking Adam, because he was an alum from their department.

00:36:12:01 – 00:36:34:15

Carmichael Roberts

And then one of the faculty members said, “We should go get this Carmichael guy, because even though he’s out of chemistry, the world of material science is coming over into biomedical engineering a lot.” And they had certain programs on it. And actually, I should say who it was. It was [Ashutosh] Tosh Chilkoti, who’s also a very storied professor here

00:36:34:17 – 00:36:56:06

Carmichael Roberts

in Duke BME [biomedical engineering]. And so I joined and I met Adam, even though we both got our PhDs [at Duke]. Not at the same time, we were a couple of years apart, totally different departments. It was through that [board] that Adam and I met each other. We used to, whenever we had a break in those meetings, we’d go get our computers open and race to do whatever we were doing

00:36:56:06 – 00:36:56:22

Carmichael Roberts

entrepreneurially.

00:36:56:23 – 00:37:00:09

Ann Pelham

You were each doing your own thing, but you had parallel lives.

00:37:00:09 – 00:37:15:15

Carmichael Roberts

We’d look at each other, and we grew to be friends. And I always said, “If I could ever get a chance to work with this guy.” He was on the West Coast at the time, and I was on the East Coast. And as fate would have it, we stayed in contact, we helped each other.

00:37:15:17 – 00:37:33:15

Carmichael Roberts

And eventually I got lucky, he ended up for a variety of reasons moving to the Boston area. Unrelated to me. And when he was in the Boston area, it was time for me to think about doing a new firm. I said, “Oh, here’s my moment. Let me go and see if I can catch him at the right time.” And I caught him at the perfect time.

00:37:33:15 – 00:37:37:01

Carmichael Roberts

And so Material Impact is founded by two Duke alums.

00:37:37:03 – 00:37:39:22

Ann Pelham

That’s great. And Material Impact continues.

00:37:40:01 – 00:37:41:11

Carmichael Roberts

Material Impact is in great shape.

00:37:41:17 – 00:37:44:15

Ann Pelham

How do you do that, and also work for Bill Gates?

00:37:44:17 – 00:38:00:16

Carmichael Roberts

Yeah. So Breakthrough Energy [Ventures]. The topic — you know what’s really interesting? Ten years ago, if I said to you, “Yeah, what do you think about climate technology?” Let me just tell you, you would say, “Huh?” Like, “What is that?” Not because you’re not smart.

00:38:00:20 – 00:38:02:04

Ann Pelham

I have a geothermal furnace.

00:38:02:06 – 00:38:02:21

Ann Pelham

[Laughs]

00:38:02:23 – 00:38:05:20

Carmichael Roberts

Because you’re not just smart, you’re brilliant. But it just wasn’t a topic back then.

00:38:05:23 – 00:38:06:13

Ann Pelham

No. It wasn’t.

00:38:06:15 – 00:38:20:21

Carmichael Roberts

People understood clean tech. They understood clean energy. Ten years ago, even in Europe, I guess in some respects [like] if you’re a politician, it may be dangerous to say the climate thing. And then, ding, the world changed [to] where…

00:38:21:01 – 00:38:21:20

Ann Pelham

It’s okay.

00:38:21:22 – 00:38:29:18

Carmichael Roberts

And more than just okay. You’ve got people arguing who does it [better and] who knows more about it. And in fact, we’re seeing that at Duke right now.

00:38:29:20 – 00:38:31:05

Ann Pelham

A big commitment to climate.

00:38:31:10 – 00:38:51:22

Carmichael Roberts

Huge commitment. And if you — I shouldn’t say just at Duke, what I’m about to say — but if you go to any major university, and you grab a thousand students, and you hand them a piece of paper. And you say, “I want you to come up with a list of five topics that you think you want the world to pay attention to.

00:38:51:22 – 00:39:02:11

Carmichael Roberts

And I want you to come up with another list of five topics that over the next 20 years of your life, you’re going to work on.” I bet you, what you’ll see in a disproportionate fashion in the top three is climate.

00:39:02:12 – 00:39:03:12

Ann Pelham

Right.

00:39:03:14 – 00:39:30:11

Carmichael Roberts

That wouldn’t have been the case just 15 years ago, right? It wouldn’t have been the topic. So a lot of what I do — I told you, I want to keep the world healthy, fed, safe, warm, secure, powered — you think about, what are the topics that center around climate? You talk about agriculture. You talk about building materials. Transportation. Manufactured products.

00:39:30:13 – 00:39:57:01

Carmichael Roberts

Electricity. Electrifying, which keeps things warm and allows you to cook, and so forth. All of these sorts of topics are right up my alley from a venture standpoint. Only those are big topics that require trillions of dollars to really tackle, to build companies in the space. And so Material Impact is — by the way, it does more than just climate stuff.

00:39:57:01 – 00:40:09:11

Carmichael Roberts

It does a bunch of other things. But Adam and I didn’t start Material Impact to be a climate-focused fund. We started it to solve a lot of the world’s problems, which include everything from women’s health …

00:40:09:11 – 00:40:13:22

Ann Pelham

Electricity, ways to cook that are not polluting [people’s] homes.

00:40:14:00 – 00:40:35:01

Carmichael Roberts

It includes that sort of stuff, which is really important, but it’s not exclusive to it. And I had a chance — under President Obama’s two terms, there were two Secretaries of Energy, both of them out of academia. One is Nobel Laureate [Steven] Steve Chu, who’s out of Stanford. He was the first four years.

00:40:35:02 – 00:41:04:02

Carmichael Roberts

Steve was the first four years. And the second four years out of MIT was [Ernest] Ernie Moniz. Secretary Moniz. I was fortunate to get to know both of them. And for Ernie I was on his board, which is called the SEAB — the Secretary of Energy Advisory Board to the cabinet member. And so all of this lined up [where] when that sort of winds down, Material Impact is in place.

00:41:04:04 – 00:41:31:00

Carmichael Roberts

And [with] the time I had spent with the government on these two topics, and all I’ve learned, and [through] Material Impact, I’m thinking where to put my time into. I remember looking and hearing [things like], “Wow, did you read about this thing that Bill Gates has started, Breakthrough Energy Coalition. He’s organized some of the wealthiest people on the planet and businessmen and businesswomen who are all like-minded to try to do something for the climate.”

00:41:31:03 – 00:41:33:15

Ann Pelham

There’s a real urgency in there. 

00:41:33:17 – 00:42:11:17

Carmichael Roberts

Yeah. And I was hopeful. I was thinking, “Oh man, this could do it. This could really put the topic on the map. If anybody can do it, Bill Gates can do it.” And I was really appreciative of the man taking this chapter in his life to do this. But I didn’t know him, I was on the outside looking in, like everyone else. Like most people, looking in. And for a variety of reasons, I think in particular due to my connections at the Department of Energy, I kept getting calls for references for people who wanted to kind of get into this group.

00:42:11:17 – 00:42:17:10

Carmichael Roberts

And so I ended up talking to recruiters a bit, Eric Toone got involved.

00:42:17:10 – 00:42:19:03

Ann Pelham

Your Duke professor.

00:42:19:09 – 00:42:40:14

Carmichael Roberts

He comes back, he emerges. And he says — he tells me this later, so I know this is what he says, “We’ve got to get Carmichael involved with this.” And there’s a lot more to the story. But let me just fast forward. It turns out that Eric Toone and I end up getting selected to be the investment committee. The two people on this.

00:42:40:16 – 00:43:02:09

Carmichael Roberts

And so that that paired really nicely with Material Impact, because Material Impact had a broad platform [and] that crossover. But this was hopeful, to be the climate fund in the world, and to be able to be on that investment committee. Go from the outside looking in, [to] being on the inside and actually being able to help make a difference.

00:43:02:09 – 00:43:04:21

Carmichael Roberts

And that was a dream come true for me.

00:43:04:23 – 00:43:07:07

Ann Pelham

Well, it seems to be going well.

00:43:07:09 – 00:43:31:00

Carmichael Roberts

Well, listen, let me just say, because I don’t want anybody to get relaxed, we have a long way to go to do what we need to do to solve the climate. But if we go back — I’m not talking about we just as Breakthrough Energy or Material Impact — I’m talking about humanity. If we go back just six years ago, we look at the progress over the last six years and look at the momentum.

00:43:31:02 – 00:43:33:10

Carmichael Roberts

You can’t help but be hopeful.

00:43:33:12 – 00:43:39:12

Ann Pelham

It’s better than the science fiction book I’ve been reading. It’s pretty bleak in that book.

00:43:39:17 – 00:43:42:06

Carmichael Roberts

[Laughs] Call me up if you start getting really depressed about it.

00:43:42:06 – 00:43:53:22

Ann Pelham

Well I know that you are very familiar with the climate commitment that Duke has made. Do you feel like the university made the right choice in making that a priority?

00:43:54:03 – 00:44:16:21

Carmichael Roberts

I would have been disappointed had our university not made climate not just a priority, but a top priority. And I know, being in the roles that I’m in, that the commitment that Duke has is sincere, it’s authentic, and it’s real. And so I’m really proud of that. I feel extremely great about it, to be honest with you.

00:44:16:23 – 00:44:20:07

Ann Pelham

I think it’s a great way to start the second hundred years.

00:44:20:11 – 00:44:21:03

Carmichael Roberts

Absolutely.

00:44:21:04 – 00:44:51:06

Ann Pelham

With that [priority] up there. You’ve got a unique spot where you’re on the Health System Board, and on the Board of Trustees. The Health System has gone through a lot. Wearing your entrepreneurial hat, are you confident that the changes that have been made are going to help position that system to be well-positioned to move forward in that second century?

00:44:51:09 – 00:44:51:17

Ann Pelham

[Inaudible]

00:44:51:22 – 00:44:53:20

Carmichael Roberts

Yeah.

00:44:53:20 – 00:44:54:06

Ann Pelham

It’s a big question.

00:44:54:06 – 00:45:17:02

Carmichael Roberts

It’s a big question, that’s ok. I like big questions. I like working on big things. So I would say just generally speaking over the last ten years if we look carefully, health systems — plural, not just Duke [but] throughout the US — have been going through all sorts of changes. And I think that combination of that happening, combined with Covid,

00:45:17:05 – 00:45:52:02

Carmichael Roberts

and what that did to the health system, particularly what it did to stress out the humans. The people taking care of people. [The impact to] that whole infrastructure was considerable. So all of that happens and it’s almost like a perfect storm. And it’s forced not just Duke, but many places, most places, to think about reinventing or re-engineering or redefining or editing, however you want to say it, who they are going to be for, like you said, for the next tens of years, maybe it’s the next hundred years.

00:45:52:04 – 00:46:19:06

Carmichael Roberts

And so Duke is, thank goodness, no different. Meaning that it realized, “Oh, we’ve got to figure this out and figure out who we are.” And the uniqueness of Duke, when you think about the geography of where Duke sits, and what Duke means, and what’s around it — it’s unique. Duke, can’t compare itself to, say, the hospitals in Boston or New York or even parts of Texas or California.

00:46:19:11 – 00:46:51:03

Carmichael Roberts

It’s a very distinct circumstance. It also brings with it challenges. But the entrepreneur in me is going to say this also brings tremendous opportunity to make a difference in healthcare, and also to build Duke’s business. So what I love is — change is always necessary in large institutions. Any large company, whether it’s a for-profit or nonprofit, that doesn’t realize that success will dictate at some moment, you have to take a deep breath and realize you can’t just keep doing the same thing the same way.

00:46:51:08 – 00:47:09:02

Carmichael Roberts

if you don’t realize that, you are going extinct. You’re going out of business. You’re going the way of the dinosaur. And Duke is in front of that. So what gives me a lot of confidence right now are the individuals who are leading the organization. And I’m not just talking about 1 or 2 people.

00:47:09:02 – 00:47:26:14

Carmichael Roberts

When I look at the 20 to 30 folks who are pouring so much time and attention and intelligence and intent — great intent — into the Duke Health System, it makes me feel really good [about] where it is going.

00:47:26:16 – 00:47:47:02

Ann Pelham

That’s good to hear because it seems to be a very important part of the Duke enterprise, the whole operation. I mean, you are in chemistry, but the many of the products [and] the ideas that you’ve worked on do relate to health care. 

00:47:47:03 – 00:48:09:23

Carmichael Roberts

I mean, I started my career as an entrepreneur on the health side. I’ve been fortunate enough to do biotech companies. I’ve failed. I’ve done biotech companies that have even today drugs on the market, products that are being sold, [that] if not for our company wouldn’t be out there. And those products are providing a huge benefit to people who need it desperately.

00:48:09:23 – 00:48:30:06

Carmichael Roberts

And there’s nothing like — I have friends who I talk to and I say, “Well, what’s going on?” “I’ve got this going wrong. Oh, but I think I got it under control, my doctor says.” “Well, what are you taking?” And they name three things, and one of them is something that I know is one of our products.

00:48:30:09 – 00:48:31:13

Ann Pelham

[Laughs]

00:48:31:13 – 00:48:38:23

Carmichael Roberts

You have a good feeling, [when it is] someone you love like that. And you [gasp] and they go, “You think that’s okay.” And I think to myself, “Yeah, I kind of know it’s okay.”

00:48:39:04 – 00:48:39:20

Ann Pelham

That’s nice.

00:48:39:20 – 00:48:41:10

Carmichael Roberts

It’s a good feeling.

00:48:41:12 – 00:49:08:20

Ann Pelham

There are a lot of positives at Duke. One of the things in this centennial year that I think the university is trying to do is admit things that it didn’t do right in the last hundred years. How do you feel about that? You referenced sometimes you’re a unique player in the middle of a room of people with a different color skin.

00:49:08:22 – 00:49:21:23

Ann Pelham

How is Duke doing these days? Have we properly acknowledged the errors of the past and positioned the university for the future in the right way, in your mind?

00:49:22:01 – 00:49:31:05

Carmichael Roberts

So let’s separate that into two different parts. First, you said “properly acknowledged.” Let me say it another way. Do we embrace history?

00:49:31:07 – 00:49:32:07

Ann Pelham

Okay.

00:49:32:09 – 00:49:51:11

Carmichael Roberts

Regardless of whether — because that’s the key thing, acknowledging. What do we acknowledge? And do we embrace the reality of history? And history could be the history of, certainly, Black and brown people. It could be the history of women. It could be religion.

00:49:51:11 – 00:49:56:13

Carmichael Roberts

We can slice it in a lot of different ways. We can look at LGBTQ.

00:49:56:18 – 00:49:57:23

Ann Pelham

Right.

00:49:58:01 – 00:50:23:00

Carmichael Roberts

Whatever thing, are we embracing the differences? Are we embracing the journeys that are unique, that each of these groups, each of these categories, if you will, are going through? Yeah. I see Duke absolutely doing it. I see a lot of pride. Are we perfect? Far from it.

00:50:23:00 – 00:50:24:00

Ann Pelham

[Inaudible]

00:50:24:02 – 00:50:49:01

Carmichael Roberts

I think anything that is perfect — it’s probably not the case — but anything that strives to be perfect in a way that you’re not willing to take risk to show your imperfections? I mean, it’s better to take the risk, and stumble a little bit, and get criticized, and realize I messed up, and realize I wouldn’t have messed up had I not tried.

00:50:49:03 – 00:51:10:01

Carmichael Roberts

It’s better to try. So I do see that inherent in Duke’s culture. Driven by the students. People often ask me, “What gives you confidence in the future, since you’re working on all those topics [like] health and education.” I think about this stuff [like] climate and so forth. Like what gives me confidence? Young people.

00:51:10:03 – 00:51:32:01

Carmichael Roberts

Like I said, the list of top five topics and the purposefulness. I see it in my kids. I see it in my nephews and nieces who love their Uncle Carmichael, and they give me an earful of stuff. I see it in the friends of all those folks. I see it in the young folks.

00:51:32:01 – 00:51:53:10

Carmichael Roberts

And at Duke, I see it in spades. You know, I really do. I see that in the culture of the place. So from that standpoint, far from being perfect, and never will be. But purposeful in the right direction today, I do see that. And there’s a lot of — we could talk about the future.

00:51:53:12 – 00:52:13:21

Carmichael Roberts

I don’t know, Ann, I’ve got to tell you. I used to look at people who when they started getting into their 50s and 60s and 70s used to say, “Oh, the world is different. The world is different today.” I’m one of those people now. But I tell you, it is a challenging thing.

00:52:13:21 – 00:52:28:05

Carmichael Roberts

I’m a global person in terms of what I deal with. Climate change is a global topic, for example. And so I’m all around the planet. Like, literally. If we design a product, we have to figure out how to get it into all the different continents and nooks and crannies.

00:52:28:05 – 00:52:36:13

Carmichael Roberts

Which means you have to spend time talking to leadership in large companies, entrepreneurs all around the planet. So I’m not saying I’m perfect, but I’ve got a good sense of…

00:52:36:18 – 00:52:39:02

Ann Pelham

It’s going to be really hot in a lot of places.

00:52:39:02 – 00:53:00:13

Carmichael Roberts

Yeah, it’s going to be really hot in a lot of places. And so you can’t solve problems without getting to know people. Even within this country. I live in Massachusetts. I spend a lot of time in other states, in different populations. Many of them who don’t have my education, many of which don’t look like me.

00:53:00:15 – 00:53:22:06

Carmichael Roberts

We are different. But I’ve got to really understand what’s going on, and ideally help them get to understand and trust me. So it’s with that background that I tell you, boy, oh boy, we have a lot of challenges right now in this world, but in this country [too]. And I think that the university, what it is and what it will have to be, is going to change over time.

00:53:22:11 – 00:53:24:12

Carmichael Roberts

And Duke is seeing that for sure.

00:53:24:14 – 00:53:32:20

Ann Pelham

Climate change, a commitment to that issue is one. Are there others that you would flag?

00:53:33:00 – 00:53:55:12

Carmichael Roberts

Loads. Some that some people may think are less important than others, but they actually turn out to all be really important if you go into the details. So, the topic of freedom of speech. That’s a challenging thing because the borderline between what is freedom of speech also bleeds into what incites riot.

00:53:55:13 – 00:53:56:12

Ann Pelham

Or hurts somebody.

00:53:56:12 – 00:54:16:00

Carmichael Roberts

Or hurts. Exactly. And it’s a not-exact science. Everyone has their exact opinion, but it’s a complicated thing. And there’s no better place than a university to have to figure that out, by living it. If we pick a topic, I’ll mention one that most people would think would be a light topic and be surprised, I’ll mention athletics.

00:54:16:02 – 00:54:34:14

Carmichael Roberts

Athletics is a thing where in general a person would say, “Why does anyone care about athletics? It’s no big deal.” Athletics, are you kidding? It creates — I want you to think about, in the worst times, what gives people peace of mind? Just to be able to escape mindlessly at times, right? Go cheer for a team.

00:54:34:16 – 00:54:35:00

Ann Pelham

Watch or play.

00:54:35:04 – 00:54:55:20

Carmichael Roberts

Go cheer for a team and feel good about that team for a little bit. It just gives people a chance. And it also allows people with differences to put them aside and be together. Whether they’re on that field together, or whether they’re in the stand shoulder-to-shoulder, high-fiving strangers who don’t look anything like them but have the same commonality of “I want this team to win.”

00:54:55:22 – 00:55:20:00

Carmichael Roberts

And so the complexity around sports, and what it means is, is huge. And of course, we could look at where healthcare is going. We just talked about that. And a lot of that is tied to universities. I’ll say another thing that’s really important. What’s the value [and] what’s the cost of a four year college education?

00:55:20:02 – 00:55:49:17

Carmichael Roberts

And how does that translate to the economic value that the individual gets? How much debt does the individual have? What’s the opportunity cost for them not working? Where is the world going these days in terms of the kinds of jobs that exist, when you have disruptive technologies like AI, when you have people working on things like manufactured products and climate change and other businesses being asked to go away in order for others to come about? How is the university looking at that?

00:55:49:19 – 00:55:51:10

Ann Pelham

And anticipating the needs.

00:55:51:12 – 00:56:23:06

Carmichael Roberts

Exactly. Anticipating the needs, and training people for the future. Not the past, not even the present, but for the future. And so you think about those kinds of challenges right now. And I said large institutions who choose not to redefine themselves go extinct. You see, for the first time, due to a bunch of political and I would say also social issues and woes, 

00:56:23:06 – 00:56:38:11

Carmichael Roberts

some of the top ten universities, top 15 universities being scrutinized, challenged, criticized. Where you can see in the numbers the dissension.

00:56:38:11 – 00:56:39:20

Ann Pelham

Fewer applications.

00:56:39:20 – 00:56:52:01

Carmichael Roberts

Fewer applications. People saying, “I think I want to go elsewhere.” A lot of things that you wouldn’t imagine, and so forth. So I come back to Duke. We’ve got to navigate.

00:56:52:21 – 00:57:09:00

Carmichael Roberts

We’ve been fortunate, I think not by accident, but still fortunate to have done well in the midst of that mess. And on all the different topics, we’re navigating well. But we’ve got to continue to do that.

00:57:09:02 – 00:57:41:00

Ann Pelham

Some of this, there’s some luck in it. You don’t ever want to say we managed to get through X, because next year, Y will come along. I think [during] Covid, Duke managed to navigate very well. It didn’t hurt to have a vaccine institute available to help you with your vaccines. But it was also a willingness to take some risks about coming back to the campus, and so on.

00:57:41:02 – 00:58:02:15

Ann Pelham

In the context of the last year, I had one student talk to me about how the Center for Muslim Life had been taken from — I’m not going to say rickety house — but a small house somewhere in the middle between the East and West campus off of Campus Drive, and move to a part of West Campus in the residential area.

00:58:02:15 – 00:58:45:13

Ann Pelham

And, you know, it was in the stone. It was in a centrally-located place. And that student credited that sort of thing with giving Duke a base of trust and respect on which to build conversations with students. The student also described situations where the leader of the Muslim [imam] — she used the word priest — and the rabbi would be on the stage sitting together, and as she said, “We were given examples of how to have difficult conversations.”

00:58:45:13 – 00:59:15:16

Ann Pelham

Does that take away the frustration and pain that drew many students onto campuses to protest? No. But maybe in the context of those opportunities to have time together, it was a little bit harder to become radicalized and angry. But that could change the next time.

00:59:15:18 – 00:59:47:12

Carmichael Roberts

That’s exactly right. But one of the key things that you said is taking risks, so to speak. Being able to do something a little bit different and being willing to — here’s another key thing, Ann. Eventually you will do something, and you will get it wrong. How does the organism respond to it? Because if the organism is intolerant of failure, it will absolutely get people not to take risks.

00:59:47:14 – 01:00:08:07

Carmichael Roberts

And so, if I had to describe what I believe Duke is uniquely positioned to do and has done, it’s not just the risk that someone takes — I’m going to use it as a risk, meaning that you did something unusual that could turn out bad, you can determine whether that’s really a risk or not, but let’s call it that.

01:00:08:09 – 01:00:32:00

Carmichael Roberts

For me, what I’m most interested in is not just the success stories that we [have], it’s the ones you don’t hear about as much, which speak volumes. Which is [that] when you try something and it fails, that it doesn’t get turned into something that will absolutely discourage you from ever taking another risk again. Being able to do that.

01:00:32:00 – 01:00:56:18

Carmichael Roberts

And even come back to your entrepreneur. What makes a great entrepreneur is not when she does something, and it works. What happens when you do something, and it doesn’t work and you’re scared, you’re demoralized, you’re second-guessing yourself, it’s just like a sport, right? You go out there, and you miss that first free throw.

01:00:56:20 – 01:01:14:19

Carmichael Roberts

Do you hit that second one? What are you made of? What happens? And that, I think, is the most important thing. Even at a systemic level, not just the individual. How does the system respond? And I think that’s what builds resilience. Resilience is not built by success.

01:01:14:23 – 01:01:42:12

Ann Pelham

I think you’re right. We want a resilient university. I’m just going to get one more topic in here. You talked about partnering. We worked on Alumni Affairs together, served as volunteers together on the Alumni Board of Directors. Is there a concept of partnership that we could apply to the body of alums, which is almost 200,000 now?

01:01:42:14 – 01:01:54:15

Ann Pelham

And the university? [President] Vince Price has talked about a lifetime relationship. How do you feel about that as a model for Duke and its partnership with its alumni?

01:01:54:17 – 01:01:58:19

Carmichael Roberts

Oh, wow. Ann, you gave me a softball question.

01:01:58:21 – 01:01:59:05

Ann Pelham

[Laughs]

01:01:59:05 – 01:02:19:06

Carmichael Roberts

Oh my gosh. You know about the resources. What’s Duke’s most precious resource? I’m going to say it’s alumni. And a lot of people don’t realize — I know you know, Ann, because you were president of the Alumni Association — a lot of people don’t realize that you’re defined as effectively a Duke alumni, how early in your career?

01:02:19:08 – 01:02:21:12

Ann Pelham

It’s like a year and a half or something.

01:02:21:12 – 01:02:35:00

Carmichael Roberts

A year and half into undergrad. So when I say our most precious resource is alums, oh yeah, I’m talking about literally 70% of the student body already.

01:02:35:02 – 01:02:36:05

Ann Pelham

How we define it.

01:02:36:05 – 01:02:59:18

Carmichael Roberts

And including the grad students. So we’re going to grab the grad students, because grad students like to claim Duke as well, no matter where they’re from. So you think about that. That’s the most precious resource. It’s full of brilliance. It’s full of really good people with great intentions. It’s full of diversity, in every way. Regardless of whether you’re a Republican or a Democrat.

01:02:59:20 – 01:03:22:13

Carmichael Roberts

Whether your ideology is left or right, or up or down. Or religious differences. You have the one commonality. It’s that old Duke piece, like I said, [where] you watch those basketball games and you look in the crowd and you see a unity like you can’t imagine.

01:03:22:13 – 01:03:49:08

Carmichael Roberts

You see that thing. And that’s our alums, in general. And so the ability, when something goes wrong, what we have in terms of a resource to try to understand what has gone on and how to think about it, and eventually how to evaluate it and what to do. What a tremendous opportunity with our alumni base.

01:03:49:10 – 01:04:02:19

Carmichael Roberts

And I would also add, of course, our faculty and staff. Regardless of whether you’re a Duke alum or not, you’re part of that milieu. You’re part of that whole. You’re engineering [and] managing that whole thing. 

01:04:02:23 – 01:04:04:18

Ann Pelham

A source of resilience.

01:04:04:21 – 01:04:44:20

Carmichael Roberts

Absolutely. And what I like is, Duke is still a young university by comparison. I know you know that well, Ann and a lot of people think, “Well, look what we’re celebrating right. 100 years.” So the number of people when you’re smaller and you’re tighter, it’s more personal. It gives you even more of a sense of ownership, compared [to] when there’s just so many you sometimes you drift and you lose that sense of ownership.

01:04:44:21 – 01:05:06:17

Carmichael Roberts

And we can see that [in] people who come from other schools and go to grad school here. They tell me, “Yeah, I know I went to so-and-so.” I’m not going to get into [which] schools. But they come to Duke and they’re like, “I claim this.” They like the culture and what we’ve got. So that opportunity, we better not ever squander that. That, we need to utilize.

01:05:06:19 – 01:05:11:02

Ann Pelham

Alright. Thank you, Carmichael. It’s been fun to talk to you.

01:05:11:02 – 01:05:11:14

Ann Pelham

[Roberts: My pleasure, Ann]

01:05:11:14 – 01:05:14:00

Ann Pelham

And thank you for being a solid Duke alum.

01:05:14:05 – 01:05:19:10

Carmichael Roberts

Oh, yeah. That will always be the case. At least the Duke alumni part. I hope I stay solid.

01:05:19:12 – 01:05:20:00

Ann Pelham

[Laughs]