Centennial Oral Histories:
Senator Dan Blue

Ann Pelham  0:18 

My name is Ann Pelham, and I’m pleased to be here today with [Daniel] Dan Blue to talk about Duke University and his role — not just on the Board of Trustees, but throughout his career. And we are going to start with your time as a young man in Robeson County, North Carolina, in Lumberton. Was Duke on your radar screen? And could you talk a little bit about where you came from, your family, and how you got to Duke Law School, which was your first time as a member of our broad Duke community?

Daniel Blue  0:58 

I enjoy talking about that, Ann. I was born in Robeson County. [I’m a] lifelong North Carolinian. And Duke was on my radar, I guess since I was a little child, because my mother was a Durham native and [when] we were younger was constantly talking about Duke because the university was just beginning to take shape. And I had plenty of relatives up here. But growing up in Robeson County, we had a lot of other things to deal with before thinking about Duke. We grew up on a family farm down in Robeson County. And at that time Robeson County, like the rest of the South, was strictly segregated. In fact, Robeson County a little more rigidly than many other counties because it was segregated across three races. And rather than two water fountains there were three, or [rather than] two bathrooms there were three.

An interesting story from that. First time I went to a tobacco warehouse with my dad — late at night, because you would take the tobacco to the warehouse late at night — I encountered eight bathrooms. Eight bathrooms in a tobacco warehouse, you know, just a shell of a building. And it was always fascinating because my dad wanted to make sure that I knew which bathroom to go to. And I did. But there was an interesting thing in those bathrooms. There were designated “white”, “colored”, [and] “Indian” [signs]. And one of them was designated “other.” And I just could not quite understand what all of this was. And there were different genders. So, you had all of these bathrooms in this, just this hollow structure. And as [a child of] five, six or seven years old, whatever it was at the time, it was fascinating. And I learned that — it ties into Duke at a point — but I learned that the tobacco industry had a lot of buyers from all over the world. From the Middle East, from Africa, from South America. And for folk who hadn’t been used to the way we were originally segregated, they could always choose “other” and not have to go into [one of the other designated bathrooms]. [Crosstalk] They weren’t sure.

But I enjoyed my time growing up. [I had a] tight knit family. And my church [and] the folk who were in my life early, my teachers, all of them sort of kept me aimed at going to school. And of course again in my youth, as the public schools [were], the universities in North Carolina were pretty rigidly segregated. And Duke from an undergraduate point until the early 1960s. So, from the standpoint of attending Duke growing up, it was not within the realm of possibility. But I always knew I was going to go to college. Didn’t know what I was going to do after I got to college, but I always knew that because they all kept telling me that’s what I was going to do.

AP  4:10 

I’m glad they did. And you were a math major at NC Central University.

DB  4:14 

I was. And the interesting reason for that is I believed the hype when Sputnik was launched — the Russian satellite, the first one — I was in the second grade, I think. May have been the first grade, but anyhow, it started the push to get kids to go into science. Constantly, we were talking about the National Science Foundation, and teachers were saying, “We need more scientists. We need people so that we can compete with the Russians. Because if we don’t compete they’re going to annihilate us.” You know, this is the age of nuclear threat and us hiding under desks and stuff. Worrying about nuclear fallout, in fact, in case there was a nuclear attack. As kids we dealt with that, so I had it embedded in the back of my mind [that] we need[ed] scientists. America needs scientists so that we can be prepared for whatever comes.

I took that attitude with me to undergraduate school and got my degree in mathematics with the concentration in chemistry, physics, and that kind of stuff. All science, except for biology. [I] followed through with it, and toward the end of my undergraduate career I started thinking a little bit differently, started thinking that I wanted to be in something where I was interacting with people more. To be in something where I could make a greater contribution. Not that you can’t do that in science as a professor. I was going to go into a Ph.D. program in math. But following the assassinations of the 1960s — the high profile ones, whether it was John [F.] Kennedy, [and] later Malcolm X, Martin Luther King, Jr., Bobby Kennedy — I started thinking that [spring], the [spring] that Martin Luther King, Jr. and Bobby Kennedy were assassinated that the common thread running through a lot of my experiences as an activist student [and] as a participant [as well as] the discussions with the other kids who was seriously engaged in contemporary events, that law would be a place where [I could] really make a difference.

And so I started drifting toward the thought of going to law school, and took the LSAT. Did okay, I thought, and that was due not necessarily to my skills but math had a way — math and engineering had a way — of preparing you better for taking the law school admissions test than some other majors did. And so, just continuing the story, Duke got on my radar. Because even in undergraduate school, we were doing activities with students from Duke, from Chapel Hill, and the Triangle. Demonstrating and doing what young folk do was not limited to one campus. We knew each other, if through meetings at the Quaker House and various other activities, [or] talking about desegregation, [or] talking about racism, [or] talking about the war, [or] talking about women’s rights. All of these things were beginning to bubble up in serious ways [and involved] student groups from the Triangle-area schools. The historically Black universities, as well as Duke and UNC, and to a lesser degree, NC State. But there were all kinds of activities pulling us together. And so once I decided to go to law school, Duke was immediately on my radar screen.

And fortunately, I talked to [A. Kennth] Ken Pye, who was the dean of the Law School then — an extraordinary and exceptional individual — and I was sold on Duke. That was it. I wanted to come to Duke and was willing to give up everything else in order to do that. And it was a decision that was really made much easier than a lot of others had been. Because the year before, as I was going through these thought changes of what I wanted to do in late 1968 [and] early 1969, by the time I was beginning my senior year in college Terry Sanford became president of Duke. And I’d followed Terry all my life. I had been one of the recipients of his leadership of the state. The way he had conducted the affairs of North Carolina so much differently than other Southern governors. The way he had basically been willing to take a chance to generate greater resources for public schools in North Carolina [crosstalk]. Absolutely. Being willing to put a tax on food because we were so underfunded in our public schools. And the amazing thing about it [was that] immediately after Sanford became governor and took the stand that we had to improve the schools, the tax passed, and the changes were palpable. I mean, they were so obvious. New textbooks. And you [have] to understand one of the things about these new textbooks. Part of the [segregation] itself had Black students in the Black schools getting used secondhand books. Many of them had pages torn out. [W]hile I was still in elementary school, we started getting new books. And we could put our name in the book as the first name in it, rather than after five or six other names that had used them. You know, in the front of the book.

But more importantly, we started getting new teachers. Teachers who had greater energy. I won’t say they had greater interest, because I had great teachers in public school. Totally committed and dedicated to us students. But there seemed to be a little bit more pep in their step. As they did things, they started talking more aggressively about the kinds of things that we could do. Because we would be prepared to compete with anybody anywhere. And, you know, new buses. I mean, just everything changed, almost overnight, from the time I was in elementary school to the time I went to high school because of policies that Terry Sanford had instituted. And the positions that he took [and] the leadership that he provided. And so Sanford was over at Duke at that time, and it was just a natural [decision]. I mean, I was so awed and impressed by what he had done as a leader. Because as a student leader, we followed him and protested in high school and stuff. We always looked to Sanford to sort of give us some guidance. A combination of all of those things made Duke the obvious place that I wanted to be.

AP  11:02 

You mentioned something about your dad putting up signs for Terry Sanford?

DB  11:07 

Yes. Some of my early experiences. And again, I was 10 years old. I was paying close attention to the elections of 1960. Not just because of the Nixon/Kennedy election, but [also because] TV was a new thing. And we happened to have a TV in this little farmhouse, and all the people from all around would come to our house to watch TV when it was on. Half the time or more it was off the air because they weren’t broadcasting full time. And so I was following, when we could get it, coverage of the debates [and] coverage of discussions about this 1960 presidential election. And following, when I could, the arguments and debates on the gubernatorial race. Because the 1960 gubernatorial race in North Carolina was the one that distinguished us from everybody else. It was the last outwardly racist segregationist campaign that was run against Terry.

AP  12:06

Beverly Lake.

DB  12:08

Beverly Lake, I. Beverly Lake [Sr.]. And Terry successfully negotiated the traps that they were trying to set for him and managed to keep North Carolina on a different path, again, than sister Southern states and the governors in those states, who had been very active before, and Little Rock, and all of those things. Again, I’m a very young kid.

AP  12:38

You were 11 or 10 or so?

DB  12:40

Less than that, less than that. But in 60, when Sanford was running, my dad was putting up his posters on light poles and sometimes trees. He wouldn’t do it to trees now [laughs]. And I would follow dad around as he was doing it. And he was engaging in the discussions, trying to get a few folk that he knew to vote. I mean, there were still very few opportunities for African Americans to vote, because you still had the Jim Crow laws and requirements [etc.] on voting. But all of us got engaged. My preacher and teachers talked about it. And so Sanford got on my radar screen. But in addition to that as school kids we all were encouraged to buy milk, because you [paid] an extra penny for the milk to help bring the battleship North Carolina back home to Wilmington [laughs]. So there are all of these things that I remember from Terry’s governorship. [They were] always encouraging as I got involved in high school, and student government, and leadership kinds of things, with the New Farmers of America — later, the Future Farmers of America — [and with] 4H and the various other rural organizations that I was engaged in. Sanford was always playing a role. So it connected in many ways.

AP  14:05 

It sounds like your roots in politics started back in junior high, or elementary school if you were paying attention.

DB  14:13 

I didn’t think it was in politics, but it was just being engaged [crosstalk].

AP  14:20

It’s a broad definition of politics.

DB  14:22

I mean, you had to convince people that they wanted to follow you. I guess there’s certain politics about that. But clearly, student government was political, whether it was class officers [or] things like that. But [yes], just a desire to help get people organized to make things better and move things along. And so I knew [I would go to Duke] hopefully under the tutelage of somebody who’s done that, who had inspired me in special ways.

AP  14:48 

I think you would have still become involved in politics if you had followed your math [and] science Ph.D. route, but I think we’re fortunate that you found the law and had a jumping-off point for your political career — and your time at Duke University. We got a piece of you, not the whole thing, in the state of North Carolina. It was 1981 when you were first elected?

DB  15:16 

Elected in 1980.

AP  15:20 

Took the job in 1981.

DB  15:24 

And at that time we became members once the elections were certified. We later changed it to January of the following year. But yes, I actually became a member in 1980 and stayed for a while. And part of that, too, was due to my Duke experience, and leaving law school. I joined the law firm that Terry Sanford had started in Raleigh. And one of the things in that law firm was that everybody had to be active doing some community service kind of thing somewhere or another. Nobody was going to tell you what that would be, but either active in political organizations, active in the Boys Club, the Y, or other community kinds of things. And so everybody did [that] and I happen to gravitate toward doing the political stuff — because there were a lot of lawyer politicians in that law firm — and helping them do various things. And so that’s how I first got pulled into it and got involved in organizing in the community for specific purposes. So it was a natural route to look at the political avenues that would be available to address many of the problems that I saw and many of the challenges that some of the people that I was working with were facing. And so it was a natural continuation from my law school experience.

AP  16:45 

It certainly seems like a perfect fit, because not every law firm would encourage you to be politically, or at least civically active, in your community. I guess it’s one step short of politically, but on the way. So you had landed in a good spot.

DB  17:03 

Perfect spot. Perfect spot. And I don’t think I could have found a better landing space coming out of Duke Law School than I found with Sanford, Cannon, Adams & McCullough — [that] was the name of the firm in Raleigh at the time. I had fun there. And learned a lot. Stayed close with the members of that firm, as well as Sanford who was encouraging. When I first got there, Sanford came in and said, “Look, these guys are gonna treat you right. And if they don’t, you let me know.”

AP  17:39 

You were the first Black member of his firm, and of any major law firm in North Carolina at that point?

DB  17:45 

Yes, for the most part. And of course, the important thing was being with the right folk, who had the right mindset, who wanted to be civically engaged, who wanted to make a difference. And, of course, when Sanford created the firm, that was part of the reason that he did it. And I was fortunate to work on some cases with him. I always tell myself that his thought was that — although he would come over every week [or] every other week on a Friday to see what was going on, he was still full-time president at Duke — but the thought was, “Hey, I can get the guy at the bottom of the totem pole, then I can be as productive as you guys even though I’m not here.” [Laughs] I know that wasn’t it. But no, it was encouraging that he would come over.

AP  18:30

That classic self-deprecating…

DB  18:32

Yeah. To come over, to just be able to talk to him about contemporary things and stuff like that. And also be involved in his efforts early on when he was running for president on the two or three different times that he was making the move to do that. And keeping in touch with him at Duke, even when I was at a law firm in the late 1970s.

AP  18:57 

He was trying to accomplish a lot. And I’m sure that you were engaged with it. He did manage to wear both hats more than one might expect. But I think for Duke, Sanford brought a deeper connection to North Carolina, but also to the world of politics and the ambition. You remember that ad that was placed in the New York Times?

DB  19:23 

Outrageous ambition. And he was right. That’s what he challenged Duke to. And I’ve got to say, looking back on it 50 years later, he was very successful in that challenge. He inspired Duke, inspired those of us who knew him, as well as those of us associated with Duke, to always aim higher than might seem reasonable. Which meant that you always aim[ed] to infinity. And I think that instilling that in this university from the time that he came was one of the critical points that made Duke become what Duke is. That’s especially something to reflect on, as we celebrate 100 years as a university [and] where the inflection points may have been. At the time Sanford came to Duke — you know the story — there were a lot of challenges here. And he sort of calmed the waters when he got here because he had a relationship with the students. And he built that relationship. They don’t naturally occur. He built that relationship. And until the time he died, he was Uncle Terry [laughs]. Everybody associated [inaudible]. Just an exceptionally successful reign in changing the trajectory of this institution. As well as making it real, to a lot more people, what was possible with a Duke education. And not just the education itself, but the learning experiences that you would get at Duke, that you wouldn’t get anywhere else. Doesn’t matter what the school was, whether they were state universities, or the Ivys, or the West Coast schools. That this truly had become a unique place, and still is a unique place.

AP  21:29 

He was an optimist. I remember one time the energy crisis was really at its peak. You and I were on campus at the same time in 1973. And he said, “We’re going to turn on the Christmas tree, we’re going to light the Christmas tree on campus.” Which was a violation of some rules. You would already see the lights turned down on campus. And he stood up there, and ever optimistic talked about, “Let there be light.” [And how] we were going to celebrate Christmas. He got a lot of attention for it, which [was], of course one of his talents as well. But it was so optimistic. And I think that is what he brought to the table [in] whatever he was doing. I appreciated that as a student. A willingness to look for the positive and try to take us there. But you were still, as a student at Duke Law, in an unusual situation. You did not have a large cohort of colleagues who looked like you. But you, like Terry, I think, take a look at the bright side and try to take advantage of every opportunity. Do you think your time at Duke was — how did it shape your political career, which started fairly quickly? You graduated in 1973 from law school, and you started your law practice. But by 1980, you were winning an election to the state house.

DB  23:04 

Clearly my experience at Duke informed and encouraged my active involvement, both civically and, as I said, encouraged by the law firm. But I think that there’s something else from the day I talked to Ken Pye. Again, I came over and probably spent an hour with him talking about contemporary issues and what my view of the world was. Duke Law School had admitted its first Black students in 1961. So, I think two of them would have graduated in 1964. And so when I came here in 1970, there wasn’t [a large community of Black students]. When I came here, one of the things that I found — and there were four Black students in my class, four guys, and I think there were eight in the law school with about 450 or so students — but the thing that I realized when I came here [was that] it was a very welcoming place in the midst of all that was going on. And it was a place that was participating in the change. I mentioned the women’s movement. The Civil Rights Movement had basically reached a crescendo. The anti-Vietnam movement was at its highest point. But what I found the first night that we came over when we started [at] the law school, a couple of guys approached — white guys from New England schools — who really didn’t understand, because they had never lived this experience in the South. Who were embracing us and it looked like I had known them forever. And we’re still very close friends.

And with that, we started making relationships. Duke had a young law faculty. It had some old ones, too, who were still stuck in the mud a little bit. But had a very young law faculty and an aspiring law faculty that made a difference. And so I immediately got involved to some degree in Duke Law School politics, with the student government stuff at the law school.

AP  25:47

You couldn’t resist, right?

DB  25:50

No, I couldn’t miss it. [I was involved] with various committees. And some of the administrators at the Law School — I mentioned Ken Pye as a dean, but other administrators [such as] Charlie Howell and some of those people — were very, very receptive and encouraging. And so as we formed study groups, I had no problem getting into them. Which is the custom in law school, you just form different study groups. And Walter Dellinger, who was really my first year primary advisor because I was in a small section, you couldn’t have had a better mentor or a better person to sort of fall under his tutelage as you went to law school. So I had a very good experience. And again, that convinced me, not only in the sense of Terry’s outrageous ambition, it convinced me personally that if I could master this that there was nothing I couldn’t master. And so it empowered me, it emboldened me, and it just made me reach for higher goals. And that’s the effect of Duke. I know that that was particularly the case at Duke Law, because I have classmates who did tremendous things. Some I agreed with, some I didn’t. But they did tremendous things in their careers, and still are doing fantastic things.

And there was this other thing that was happening. The relationship between the graduate students, and professional school students, and the undergraduate students was a pretty close relationship. Because [of] the size of the school you could basically drop in at the last minute, or do whatever you wanted to do, and you were running into undergraduates. And constantly these serendipitous exchanges [were happening]. Getting different ideas and different approaches. Then, of course, you were running into a good number of them all the time as we protested something together, and participated in various activities to make the town better. And the one thing that I’ve found encouraging from all of that, because of this cross-pollination of Duke and NC Central and to a degree UNC, it eventually brought the town in so that Duke was finally part of Durham in a bigger sense. And all of those things let you know what was really important in this process. And I think that I learned that better at Duke than I had anywhere else [or] I have anywhere else since then. That there’s just something inviting about this place.

And I know that as we look back, as a university — Duke is celebrating 100 years from the Duke Endowment — and for 55 of those 100 years I’ve been associated with this university. And my opinions of it now are as great, if not greater, than those initial ones. There were bumps in the road. And there were things that you had to change, and things that you got to be actively engaged in. But the platform was in place. And I think the ingredients are there to really make this the top flight institution that it is now. But more importantly, an institution that’s not only academically superior and great, but one that understands where it is and now is understanding better what its roots were. [And] more importantly, what its flight can be based on what it has already achieved.

From a university perspective, I may not have ever told you but in 2013 or 2014 I was asked to do the Founders’ Day address at the university. And I started reflecting back on what Duke had been over the period since 1838. And in order to get the sense for it, I drove down to Trinity. I found this little area where Duke was founded. And I sat in this park-like setting for more than an hour, hour and a half, just sitting and thinking, you know, “What was this like in 1838 as Brown’s Schoolhouse?” Nobody would have had any idea that it would look like Duke looks now. And this is when I was making the Founders’ Day address. And it was feeling the [inaudible] around that, that you get this sense of something starting from nothing. And becoming — you know, it reminds me of your comment about Sanford. That’s sort of the Genesis experience, “Let there be light.” [Laughs]. It seems like that kind of experience coming in and really taking hold. Because you realize over the course of that roughly 160 years [or] 170 years the journey that this university had taken. And it came on some stormy roads, too, given the region that we’re in. It, more than a lot of institutions, may have been late coming to the dance. But once it seriously got in the dance, it out-danced everybody else on the dance floor. And that’s the way I see it. Once Duke sort of decided what its past was, where adjustments needed to be made, it has adapted better than any other institution I knew of.

AP  31:41 

I think it’s true, too, that hopefully, the leadership of Duke — whether it’s the trustees or the administration, whether it’s the hospitals or health system — I hope that we are not satisfied yet and haven’t stopped asking the question, “What’s next?” And I think that’s part of what the centennial offers us, is a chance to say, “What is the next 100 years?”

DB  32:05 

Well, how can you have an outrageous ambition if you’re going to be satisfied? I mean, by definition, it’s infinite. You’ve got to keep wishing, and hoping, and working for greater things. That’s what nature would have us do. Because that’s the natural way to evolve. And I think that Duke is on that path.

AP  32:25 

Well, let’s talk about your role when you were chair of the Board of Trustees, and set the stage. You joined the board, and then you emerged as the leader. Could you talk about that a little bit?

DB  32:40 

Sure. Well, it’s not so much emerge. It’s because of a lot of people. It’s because of fellow trustees. It’s because of an administration, several administrations, that were doing marvelous work. And you realize that our function is not to do the day-to-day rowing of the boat, but sort of set the direction and make sure that steerage is correct [and] is operating properly. And so I came on the board at a very interesting time. I salute the trustees who had served on the board before, some [for] very long terms before there were restraints put on it. But the members of the Board of Trustees when I came on was a tremendous assemblage of people who felt very strongly about Duke, and who were willing to do anything to make this university all that it can be. Board members exuded that in all of their activities, whether it was in giving their time, their resources, their advice. And so when I came on the board, [Nannerl] Nan Keohane had just recently been named president a year earlier. And so that showed that there was a sense of moving forward and aggressively in a different way, as the first and only woman president of the university and one of the early women [presidents] of major universities. Nan hit the ground running. But it had to show some vision, on the part of many of the trustees who were on the board when I got there, of them willing to make that leap.

AP  34:26 

You became a trustee in 1995.

DB  34:29 

Yes, and Nan had come in 1993. and then was beginning to sort of actualize some of the great aspects or attributes of Duke in a different way. Part of her focus was to tear down the silos that had been established, make us more interdisciplinary, and making us more interdisciplinary in the academic pursuits made us also more embracing of other things. Because these serendipitous meetings that you would have with people outside your discipline or outside your areas of interest would lead you down different paths. So it was against that backdrop that I did my early service on the board. Again, inspired by trustees and staff and administrators. And faculty. I got to know a lot of the faculty. All of the players at Duke. [Because of that] we were able to sort of set the direction that Duke started going in. I think, again, that Nan was able to actualize a lot of the things that Terry had envisioned, and even some of the earlier administrators. And so I had fun, and played a role in picking [Duke President Richard] Dick Brodhead as a member of the committee that was assigned that task.

And the way that we do leadership at Duke, and I’m taking it that the board still does, you’re not just dropped into the spot of being the chair. And so I started out as vice chair, and we had weekly meetings with the chair. We had two vice chairs. [We were] heading committees, leading committees.

AP  36:20

You did audit and compliance?

DB  36:22

I did audit and compliance. I did business and finance. [Crosstalk] I chaired both of those. So you knew what the challenges to the university were. But there was nothing unique about me in doing that. That’s just part of the process. You get plopped into it, and you start working through it. So by the time I became chair, I had two great vice chairs, and a lot of other committee chairs who basically kept us informed of what was going on so that we knew when to change the direction and things like that, but to be supportive. But it was exciting. It was one of the highest honors that personally I feel I’ve ever received. For your contemporaries and peers to vest that power and authority in you. And there were challenges. But that’s what the Board of Trustees is for. You’re always going to have challenges in a complex [and] high-end academic institution [Crosstalk] that’s getting better. And especially when that institution has two things. I chaired the audit committee of both the health system and the university, because both of them were challenged by what was going on. We had a class A athletic department, and when you got that you got challenges, because of some of the compliance issues. And a Class A health system. When you’ve got that, you got challenges. Because you go beyond the envelope sometimes. And so you always have to look at ways that you mitigate anything that a challenge has created, or a problem, but [you’re] also planning to not have those as much as possible.

AP  38:02 

Learning from them. So could you give us a couple of examples of the challenges when you were either just on the board, or as chair?

DB  38:09 

We had a challenge of what healthcare was going to look like. So we created a health system. We had Duke Medical Center for the most part, and Duke Hospital. But in 1998 it became obvious to us that you had two different things going on. The thing about a place like Duke is that faculty governance is very important and getting consensus before you move is very important. But I like to tell people that sometimes when you use that process, it moves at a glacial speed. And when you’re running a world-class health system, things are moving at warp speed. And so you have to have a governance structure that accommodates for both of those. So we created the health system, separate and apart from the university trustees. Trustees before that time had direct control over all [entities]. And we realized that you had to use the health system on a strict business model. Any business in this country, in order to survive, would have to do that. Especially one that’s moving so quickly. And we did that. That was a challenge. We picked up the Raleigh Hospital. All of the debates and discussions with Durham County on picking up Durham County General, which is Duke Regional [Hospital] now. That was a challenge, and we came through it very successfully. And I think that the performance of the health system over the last 20-plus years pretty much has shown that that was a pretty good decision. We had challenges in athletics-related things. When Dick Brodhead came, you had the various things that you’re going to run into when anybody is going to challenge a new leader. And he performed admirably in that.

AP  40:08

Are you talking about Coach K?

DB  40:10

Well, not Coach K, particularly, but it’s natural that you want to test whoever the leader is and make sure that they’re a real leader. And I think that Dick shone very brightly in that regard. And Nan had some of the same issues when we did the health system. And she performed. We had a committee, three of us, that clarified what the authority of the president was over the health system and who the health system head was. [Inaudible] so you now have the structure. But I’m talking about other things, because you get extraneous things that affect the university. And there were challenges to student athletes along the way early on in Dick’s tenure. And we managed to move through that. I must have talked to 100 alumni, at least, major donors of the university, trying to bring us through that experience that we had in the early part of the century.

AP  41:06 

You’re talking about lacrosse, and I know you don’t want to use that word.

DB  41:10 

Well, but those challenges you’re gonna have. And the test is whether you’re able to pass them. I think that we did. And I mentioned two presidents who really brought this university through some very challenging experiences, and I think have made it even better for that. And so yeah, there was the debate on what we were going to do with a very aggressive research university. And so in order to deal with some of those things, it was the National University of Singapore where we created a hospital and health system. And so you adapt to what the challenges are. And the board has to be able to live with you, as recommendations are made, as to the best way to still pursue the university’s agenda. And then during that period, we laid the foundation for starting the [Duke] Kunshan University. So it was a very active period, but still with challenges. I was on the board for almost 17 years. And so you’re going to see a lot of the challenges in the university, and see the way that we reacted to it. And none is as obvious as part of one that we’re sitting in. Perhaps the most obvious change at Duke University during my tenure as a trustee, was just this huge building boom that we went through. And there were a lot of challenges in that. If you look at the campus now, you see that it pretty much all meshes together. It is a campus for the 21st century. We were still in a campus for the 20th century. You know, the debates on Central Campus, converting the Women’s College into a freshman campus. All of those kinds of things occurred. And I don’t think many people would now — even though there were people who were naysayers about it — I don’t think anybody now would think that that was a bad move. But all of those things go to making Duke the Duke of today. And I think it’s a better Duke because of that.

AP  43:22 

And [with] those changes, there was give and take all the way along.

DB  43:27 

There should be. There should be debates. That’s what a university is for. And trustees ought to reflect what the university is. We want challenges — that is, thoughtful challenges — to all of those things so that you rationalize and you get a firm basis for making the decisions that you make.

AP  43:46 

So you broke a race barrier when you became the board chair. It’s hard for me to imagine that was the case. You were such an excellent and progressive person who fit in as if you had sort of had that job from age 10. But it was a milestone for Duke. So I’m obligated to bring it up, even though it seems like ancient history at this point.

DB  44:19 

And look, I told you that’s one of the greatest honors that I’ve had bestowed upon me, to chair this board. As you know, our three kids went to Duke [and completed] multiple degrees. And my two boys were more skeptical when I told them that I was in line and I was going to be the chair. My daughter accepted that immediately. She said, “You ought to be.” And blah, blah, blah. “You’ve spent the time, you’ve done all of that.” But the boys had some skepticism built into it. So the day that the board elevated me to be the chair, my youngest son called me and he was an undergraduate and a law student from Duke. Very active in a lot of stuff. An athlete. And he said, “Well, you know, I sort of sensed they would do the right thing, but you never can be sure. You have to always look.” [Laughs] But you know, the thing about that is as much as I love Duke, and as much time as I’ve put into this university over the last 55 years, I don’t think that there was something unique about me being the chair — being the first Black chair. There’s something unique about being the chair. And I have to realize that there were others, maybe not on the Duke board because there hadn’t been that many on the board. [But] others who could have done that.

And that’s the same attitude I take about — you mentioned that I was elected shortly out of law school, and was the first African American elected to the House of Representatives of North Carolina from Wake County, biggest county in the state, capitol county since 1894, I think. And as I reflected on that, there wasn’t anything special about me, except the opportunities given to do it. And when the opportunity arose, fortunately I was in a position to seize it. But I just think that there are a lot of people who have the skill to do a lot of things. And that’s why I think Duke is special, and even more special now than it was prior to celebrating this centennial of Duke University. Because I think that once Duke made the decision that it was going to join the real world — later, again, then the other contemporaries, the other schools in the region, whether it was in North Carolina, or the other Southern schools that thought that they were Duke’s equal on a regional basis — it went in full-bore. And I look at the five Black students who started in 1963, what, two of them, three of them finally graduated, I believe. Several just left because of frustration. But the journey from there to now has [been as] a university that showed that it was serious in this pursuit, by doing something that a lot of people might not think was a monumental thing for Duke.

But Sanford and the provost and the deans at the time brought John Hope Franklin here in 1982. And John Hope Franklin totally changed the history of the American South by telling the story in his epic book From Slavery to Freedom. And [in] that saying, we are embracing something, and we are embracing it whole-hog, as we talk about barbecue in North Carolina [laughs]. We’re taking the whole thing. And to say that Duke is acknowledging this is one of the preeminent historians of all time. And the fields that he was the expert in [said that] Duke was ready to take the full journey. And I think, again, my becoming chair of the Trustees was a continuation in that. I commented on Dick Brodhead early on, and I’ll tell [Duke President] Vince Price the same thing, and with Nan starting it in an earnest way, I think. When you look at the various schools at Duke University, and you look at the diversity, whether it’s women or minorities chairing major schools, it’s an indication that we’re in it for a long haul and these concepts that we preach and talk about are concepts that the university is living. And that’s the Duke that I think all of us embrace. And that’s the Duke that will be successful in the future. And that’s why we will outflank anybody who wants to compete with us who is not doing the very same thing.

AP  49:16 

I appreciate your optimism.

DB  49:17 

I’m optimistic. Because optimism consists a lot of your willingness to roll up your sleeves and try to make your dream the reality. Again, outrageous ambition. If you don’t believe that you can do it, you never can do it. But no, there are many other important moments in the history of this university. You got to know her, and a lot of other folk did, but Mary Duke Biddle Trent Semans was the dynamo who behind the scenes drove more stuff than people will ever realize that she drove. And regardless of how the annals of history treat it, [she] will be one of the most impactful and significant individuals in this university’s history as that history is written. But she did something else. She brought another dimension. Not just the Duke name, and the Duke money, and the Duke interest. She brought a real alliance with the city. There were times that the town-gown relationships here didn’t gel that well. And Mary’s constant involvement, her constant inclusion of people across all kinds of lines, made that a reality. I mentioned the trustees, and the role that the ones before me played, and me being positioned to become chair of the board. But I look back at Mary, who served on a board, made that board more inclusive, made it more visionary and more future-oriented, brought Terry Sanford here and put Duke on a different trajectory than it had been one until 1961. So, look, there are so many people.

AP  51:21 

Tell me about some others. Who are the key leaders that you think of, when you look back at the last — well, you and I are in the 50-year category. Who else do you think of besides Mrs. Semans, in addition to her?

DB  51:40 

There was [Board of Trustees member] Isobel Craven Drill, who I knew, and I know her daughter. She was the daughter of — a great great granddaughter, I think — of one of the early presidents, [Braxton] Craven. And she overcame some of the traditions of the time. I mean, he did a great job here. But [she was] part of that cohort on the Duke board that really decided, “We’re moving forward, we’re going to take this university forward.” I think of some of the faculty members. [William] Bill Anlyan running the health system for so long. Even Ralph Snyderman, running the health system. These people were very key. I mentioned John Hope Franklin. But some other things were happening around Duke in the 1970s and 1980s. There was [Samuel DeWitt] Sam Proctor [who] they brought on in the Divinity School, just a renowned Black Baptist preacher. There was a cohort of Black clergy folk in the Divinity School that made a difference and helped set the tone for this school. They were the conscience of where the administration was going. But also they were complimentary of what Sanford was trying to do.

I look at the law school. I mentioned to you that there was a fellow named [Elvin] Jack Latty, who decided that Duke Law School was going to be a major law school, and basically put it on his shoulder by going around finding people all around the country that he thought could come to Duke and could make a difference. [He] recruited some of the highest regarded classes. And that was continued. I was fortunate enough to know Jack Latty. And the list goes on. I could be endless with the faculty members that I befriended when I was in law school, but also their interaction with people from other faculties across the university. I think that when you look at where we are now, there had to be something in the way that faculty governance was created at this place. Because there’s a sense of this university after the faculty started playing a major role. What was it, the [President Arthur Hollis] Edens [administrative affair]. Who was the guy in Chemistry? [Paul] Gross. When the faculty started playing, this school started changing. And if we’re going to educate people and make them smarter, they ought to start behaving smarter. And that’s why faculty involvement makes a difference. And so I could go down a long list of faculty members who have played a significant role.

I could go down a long list of students. I thought Tom Drew was one of the more effective as Duke Presidents over a long period of time. And I might sense that because we used to collaborate on a lot of things, and have a lot of joint meetings. And a series of young leaders that were created in the 1970s and 1980s that still pursue the goals that we set forth in the 1970s. But from an administration standpoint, with Nan Keohane, with Dick Brodhead, I think that they were here at crucial times and between the two of them served 25 years. Twenty-five percent of the time since Duke became a university. [They] had a sense, a deep sense, of where we ought to be going. But more importantly had an idea of how we ought to get there, and cultivated a cooperative trustee board. And the people committed to that, you know, John Chandler, and who was the board chair when Nan came, who brought her here. And those kinds of folks will go down as being important people at important times in Duke’s history. You can’t overlook those who, again, not only trustees, but those who were willing to make a huge commitment to this university. And still make huge commitments.

Our fellow trustee David Rubenstein was a quiet guy, and participated. And Duke changed him as a student, but more importantly, changed him as a trustee. And he decided that this was the place that he ought to put his resources. And he hasn’t stopped giving, and continues to do that. And it’s important to have that. When The Duke Endowment announced its 100 year contribution to Duke at the celebration that we were both at, and when you look at how they plan to use that 100 million dollars, it shows that a lot of thought is going on in places that we don’t know thinking is really occurring in a deep sense, as to what makes us even greater as we go downstream. And there’ll be many other names that will emerge from that. But those are some that immediately come to mind as I think of Duke in a historical sense. I mentioned Mary Biddle Duke Trent Semans, but if we go back before James B. Duke, and clearly that has to be an important individual for Duke, but his family, his dad, and the decision to bring Duke here where it could flourish and thrive in Durham. Rather than that little place that I set out on an afternoon for more than two hours, just sensing what it must have felt like and what it could be. The names and individuals are endless who continuously contribute to this place, as those who’ve contributed so far. I’d like to mention one other person. A janitor in the law school. The law school stayed open 24/7. The library did. So you were in and out all the time. But [they] would wake me up sometimes at four o’clock in the morning, because I’d fall asleep studying at one of the carrels. [Someone] who was committed to the students. And there are a lot of people like that. I saw that we’re naming a part of the building — East Union. Countless people like that, who made this place as great as it is, and who will continue to make it great if it’s going to get greater. You remember them. Sometimes a name, but always a deed.

AP  58:44 

I think the expectation that some of us optimists have about Duke is in the Terry Sanford vein. The outrageous ambition hasn’t cooled.

DB  58:59 

It has not. And that’s what’s so invigorating. That’s why you and I could still be so engaged 50 years later.

AP  59:08 

The school has to keep changing in order to preserve that optimism about the future. Because the future is not going to be like the past.

DB  59:19 

That’s why we did Kunshan, isn’t it? Because we started thinking [that] academically we need to embrace something differently. And that applies to every venture that we undertake at this university. Not only in the academic pursuits. In the athletic pursuits. In the community relationship pursuits. I mean, Duke has played the role in revitalizing downtown Durham. Duke has played the role in making folk across the city know that it is a part of the city. Duke-Durham relationships are at an all-time high, but you don’t sit and rest on your laurels. You’ve got to constantly work at it, and whether it was folk like [Duke administrator] John Burness and some of the folks early on who really emphasized that, we’ve got to remember them. And you always hold them up as examples, whoever their successors are, as to the kinds of changes that you have to make. But you’ve got to sense what those different changes are. You know that there will always be changes. You know, they don’t show themselves immediately. But you’ve got to be smart enough, and diligent enough, and insistent enough, to know what change ought to be at the right moment, so that you don’t go down the ramp [on] the wrong track. And I think that we do pretty well at that.

AP  1:00:33 

You’re hopeful, as a matter of course, and in your DNA. You’ve talked about some of them, but are there hopes for Duke’s second century — the formal Duke, not the one down in Trinity, the second century defined in that more narrow way — that you’d like to talk about?

DB  1:00:57 

Yeah, somewhat. There was a guy on the faculty here named Dan Ariely, I believe his name was. The Shape of the River, or something like that, was the name of his book. I read it a long time ago. He talks about how once things are set, you don’t change them. And part of that discussion is one that we had on the board about how you overcome 400 years of history or 300 years of history as an institution of higher learning, before you even become a participant of it. And his conclusion was [that] you don’t do that. The river doesn’t change its course. Once it’s set, it’s set. Yet, Duke did that in the 20th century. It became not just a Southern version of the Ivys. It became an institution, one of probably two or three in the country, that in the 20th century did things that equaled or excelled the things that the traditional institution — the bastions of higher education — were doing.

And so my belief is with that same kind of determination — call it whatever you want to, it doesn’t have to be called outrageous ambition, but it’s going to end up being that — not only showing that you can change the course of the river, you can change the course of a continent, or the course of a planet. If you are as focused and as determined as we have been over the last 60 years at this institution. Just three generations. And so that means that by the 2070s or 2080s, we ought to be able to look back and have different marks along the way as to what Duke has done, that everybody said couldn’t be done. And I think that us setting our sights on being relevant to the world is the way that we will do it. We will always have feet well-planted. I still think that we can significantly change a region.

I’ll share a quick conversation with you. When I first got on the board, there was a great trustee named Morris Williams. Morris was a great inspiration to me. We were going to one of these retreats that we got famous for in the late 1990s, and we were talking about the Mary Lou Williams Center [for Black Culture], and various other things, and the kinds of courses. And so Morris and I were having this long conversation on the bus ride in Winston-Salem. We were going to Graylyn [Estate], I believe. And he was playing devil’s advocate with me, more than anything else. Pushing me and pushing me. At first I didn’t realize that that’s what he was doing. So I’m thinking, “What’s this guy saying?” But he was pushing me. And his point was that the South is a good place to anchor yourself. Because the challenges that we face, a lot of them are still with us. And we’ve got to be willing to bring them to the forefront so that we can fix them. And so the debate about [the] Mary Lou Williams [Center], and whether we ought to be a separate center. We’d gone through the debate in the late 1970s and early 1980s about whether there ought to be a separate structure. Whether you want to have the courses associated with [a Black cultural center]. And after an hour of this intense talk with Morris, I realized what was really at the bottom of Duke being able to move so quickly after it made its decision in the early 60s. It’s the recognition of what the problem is, and then a recognition of how you pull people together to fix that problem. And then to start forecasting other problems.

So, we’ve conquered this debate on what is the best institution in the South to deal with all kinds of things. And I think that we’ve conquered a lot of the concerns that people raised as to whether or not we could be one of the best institutions in the country to do it. We’ve shown that we’re up to the task. And I think the challenge is to show that we can do it worldwide. And I believe we can, but that’s the challenge. We’ve got to wrestle with the real issues, and this interdisciplinary way that we uniquely created to do this stuff before the other institutions. We’ve got to continue to deal with things that address questions about hunger, we’ve got to continue to deal with things that address questions about opportunity [and] equality around the world. While we can rest on some of the progress that we’ve made in this country, on gender equity, and all of that stuff, we’ve still got a long ways to go in that regard. Same with regards to some of the racial issues. But we’ve also got to do it on a worldwide basis. We’ve got to do it with our institutions. We’ve got to provide models. And the big issues will still remain, there’s not going to be a shortage of things that we can address our attention to. We have the structure and the institutions to do it in the sciences. I mean, we’re as advanced as anyone in what our scientists are doing to cure diseases. We have challenges making sure that people around the world can benefit from those methods and treatments that we come up with. We understand well the systems of government that we’re dealing with now. You’re familiar with a lot of the stuff that goes on in the School of Public Policy. Trying to get us to talk to each other, and solve these problems that are obvious. I mean, it’s obvious to Duke people.

AP  1:06:57

And climate change.

DB  1:06:59

And climate change. I was going to say climate change next. And you look at these issues that are being debated in all kinds of settings — the School of Public Policy and the Sanford School — then you know where the challenges lie, and you know you have the institutions that can direct you to possible solutions. And we know that we have the students, and the faculty, that are able to really come up with answers. And now the challenge is making sure that whether it’s the students, or the faculty, or the community at large, we are creating the place that they talk about them. And not yell at each other. Not suspect somebody because they look differently, talk differently, dress differently. Maybe [they] believe in different things, but get [to] a common acceptance as to what truth is. We come to realize that the whole is so much better than the sum of its parts. It’s bringing those parts together. But I like what I see, in some of the efforts that we’re doing that are different from what I’m seeing in other places. Our schools are the places to go. The interdisciplinarity that Nan talked about plays a big role in it, when it’s law, and business, and the Divinity School, and the ethics associated with it. And maybe having somebody to tone that temperature down when we start yelling too much, looking for common solutions. We generate students and graduates of this institution, and all of its different aspects to help answer those questions that they’re raising. And so that’s where I see us going, and where I hope will be. I’ve been around, as have you, when we celebrated the 50th anniversary of Duke University as Duke University. We were around when they celebrated the 75th. And we’re here celebrating the 100th. And with a lot of good luck, we’ll be here when we celebrate 125 [laughs]. And so we will have covered a significant part of this universe’s existence. I will bet you 25 years from now, because we think long-range and we act long-range, that we’ll still be looking for other challenges, because we will have overcome many of these that I’m talking about. And we know that if we don’t, especially with the climate stuff and the environmental stuff, we might not be here, but a whole lot of other folks might not be here either.

AP  1:09:40 

The chance to talk with you is always a pleasure. And your optimism — except for that last part [laughs] — is really a treat. And your contributions to Duke over these decades have been tremendous, and we’re appreciative of your love for the school and all that you’ve given to it while you’ve been doing so many other things. I’m talking to you as if Duke were the only thing on your plate.

DB  1:10:07

I’m a country lawyer [laughs].

AP  1:10:13

[Laughs] We know you have a full plate. It’s been really a pleasure to talk about your journey from Robeson County, up to Durham and Raleigh. And Duke is very lucky that you’ve been with us all this time.

DB  1:10:30

Thank you, Ann.

[Crosstalk]