Centennial Oral Histories:
Rebecca Trent Kirkland & Mary Duke Trent Jones

Luke Powery  0:19  

I’m Luke Powery. And I’m here with Mary [Duke Trent] Jones and Rebecca [Trent] Kirkland. We are here for the Duke Centennial Oral Histories Program. It is a great privilege and joy to be with both of you this afternoon. There’s so much that could be asked of you both, but I think a good way to start is to give a bit of context for your family. Your mother — Mary Duke Biddle Trent Semans — was the granddaughter of Benjamin N. Duke, and the great-granddaughter of Washington Duke. Tell us about your family and childhood.

Rebecca Kirkland  1:14  

Go ahead [laughs, gestures to Mary Jones].

Mary Jones  1:16

Well, I tell you, Luke — my mother, as you know, really spent most of her life in Durham. She came to Durham from New York when she was 15 to live with her grandmother Sarah P. Duke, who was Ben’s wife. She went on to Duke — very young, about 15 — and that’s where she met our dad, Jo [Josiah Charles] Trent. They got married very young. She was very young. He [had] finished med school at Duke — excuse me — the University of Pennsylvania. No, he went to [turns to RK]?

RK  1:53

Well, he graduated from Duke.

MJ 1:54

That’s right, then he went to the University of Pennsylvania Med[ical] School. His mother told him he could not get married until he had finished med[ical] school. So that’s how all that transpired. And they lived in Durham. I was born two years after they were married. And they lived on Club Boulevard, and we moved — this is during the Second World War — we lived on a farm where we had chickens, cows, horses, [and] pigs. Yeah, we remember those days. Our sister Barbara [Biddle Trent Kimbrell], who was the youngest of the four of us, she was not born until they moved off the farm to a little street called Demerius Street. We moved on to Michigan, where he did a postdoc, and he was very ill. We moved back to Durham. So that’s kind of our childhood. 

RK 3:07
Okay, so while Mary lived on Club Boulevard, the house was too small. So I was taken over to [the] Pinecrest [residence in Durham] — which was where our grandmother lived — by the lady that helped bring up Mother, who was with us for mother’s life, and our lives. And her name was Bethy, she’ll come up again. So, they would bring me over to Club Boulevard during the day. And then at night, I would go back to Pinecrest. Because we didn’t have enough room in [the] Club [Boulevard house].

MJ  3:44  

And in between Becky and [myself] there was Sally. So Sally and I lived on Club with Mother and Dad, and then you heard what happened to her [gestures to Rebecca and laughs].

LP  4:04  

Yeah, booted out [laughs]. 

RK 4:04

That’s right [laughs], not enough room.

LP  4:06

Oh my goodness. So, four girls?

MJ  4:08

There were four Trent girls.

LP  4:12

Okay, that’s wonderful. Now, to fast-forward, and I know there’s a lot that could be said, let me ask this — What was what was your childhood like? 

RK  4:29  

We had a great childhood. 

MJ  4:33

We did. We really did. You know, there were four of us together. So we always had a playmate.

RK  4:39  

We didn’t really know that we were too different from anybody else. We went to Durham Academy, which was Calvert [Method] School at the time. And then we all went to Carr Junior High, which is no more. So we just thought that that’s what you did.

MJ  5:02  

One of the things that kind of made it different though, was [that] we were never allowed to babysit. And of course, you know, there are all the worries — we didn’t know about it, but about kidnapping. 

RJ  5:18

The Lindbergh baby.

MJ  5:20

The Lindbergh baby. We didn’t really know anything about that, though. So, things were a little different in that way. And we knew that our grandmother had three houses. That was very different. Two in New York, and one right next door to us. So it made it just a little different, but we didn’t think anything about it. We had our friends. We weren’t allowed to walk home from school. 

LP  5:50

Oh – so how did you [get home]? 

MJ  5:51

Oh, we had somebody pick us up. 

RJ 5:53  

Well, one day I walked home from school. And I didn’t tell anybody. And I [had] never been so punished. So, I never did that again. But, you know, this was also a time when our Dad was so sick. And then Mother got really occupied with that, and then going back to school. She finished her degree after he died. And I think that those years were all colored with that. And Bethy, who was the lady that I told you lived with us, was really the stabilizing influence. She was there all the time.

MJ  6:39  

Her name was Elizabeth [Lucina] Gotham, and you’ll see in the [Duke] Chapel some flowers are given for her every year.

LP  6:48

Of course, that’s who that is. 

MJ  6:49

That’s who that is. We called her Bethy. And she actually came to be Mother’s governess when Mother was little. And she lived with us until she died. She died in 196[8]. That’s right. 

LP  7:06  

Fast-forward a little bit past your childhood — you both attended Duke. And what was it like attending Duke University in the 1960s?

RK  7:20  

Oh, that’s interesting.

MJ  7:21  

That’s a very interesting question.

RK  7:24  

We loved Duke. And we had a great time, right? 

MJ  7:30  

We did. We loved it. That’s where I met my husband. So it was great.

RK  7:33  

So, I lived in Bassett House [residence hall]. 

MJ  7:39  

And I spent a lot of time in Brown House [residence hall]. 

RK  7:45  

I think that the things that were different have to do with the activism that you see now that you didn’t see so much then, even though it was the 60s. Although we were right there on the edge of the civil rights movement, Duke was sort of insulated. I was really happy that it integrated in 1963. Wilhelmina [Reuben-]Cooke was eventually on the Board of Trustees and [crosstalk] Mary got to know her too. Those were interesting times, from that point of view. And I was glad Duke finally came along. 

MJ  8:32

It was very different because there was no diversity at Duke. It was all pretty much lily white. I think some of the grad schools before I graduated — I graduated in 63 — and that’s when Wilhelmina came in that fall. I think that that was probably the big thing for us, was that there was no diversity. Also, you fast forward — no social media. So that was a huge difference. 

RK 1  9:05  

Because we got to know our classmates better.

MJ  9:10

A lot of face time.

RK  9:12

People weren’t constantly on the phone and caring about who was on Facebook or TikTok or whatever [laughs]. 

LP  9:20  

Most definitely a different time. Thinking about your mother, who was legendary and was a force for good — here at the University, in Durham, and [in] the world, really. In tandem with her both of you have made remarkable contributions to society — professionally, civically. And with her legacy, do you feel that you had a sense of responsibility to carry on the legacy of your mother and the Duke family, in terms of what you have contributed through your lives up to this point.

RK  10:05  

She instilled in us the sense of giving back and doing good. And she was involved in politics in Durham. You have to do the things that will help get whatever you believe in [moving] forward. And she loved Duke University. And yes, she felt an obligation. But she also felt that it was a responsibility to do something, to keep it going. 

MJ  10:31  

She did. And, you know, she was always giving to others. She found it very hard to kind of say “thank you”, because she’d rather give than receive. But I agree with Becky that she really taught us to give to other people — giv[ing] not just things, but your life, kind of. She was very interesting in that way, in that she didn’t spend a lot of time with us. Because there was Bethy for us. She was always there. And we helped her do a lot, we would hand out flyers for her, we worked on the Community Chest. She was very involved in everything. People loved her. And the other interesting thing was that she was able to bring people together that might disagree. They’d call her. And then she’d call somebody back, and then she’d call the other person back, and somehow she would get them on the right track.

RK  11:53  

That part is really interesting, because that was true at Duke. There was always something political going on. And so, somebody would come over and visit her at home at Bivins Street, and talk to her about this side of things. And she would then try to look at what the bigger picture was, not just take that and go with it. But they hoped that she would be able to either help or give some advice about how to move forward. And she was really good about doing that. She was an adjudicator, she just — when I think about the department heads that would call her and say “I got this kind of issue, and this is what’s coming up, Mary, what do you think?” She would get involved.

MJ  12:40  

And she knew everybody in Allen Building, which was very important.

LP  12:49  

Always [laughs]. As you think about her life and your own lives as her children, are there days or have there been moments when you’ve done something or you’re involved in a certain activity, and you think, “Oh, that’s what [my] mother used to do.” Are there certain things that you see in your own life that you say, “Oh, that’s my mother”?

MJ  13:15  

I think that’s true. I mean, I was on the Duke Endowment for 30 years, and I didn’t want to get off. 30 years is a long time [laughs]. And I knew that she was not going to be happy when I retired. She was dead, of course. But I knew she wasn’t gonna like it. So that was my thought.

RK  13:43

And how long was she on there? 

MJ 13:46

She was on for, like, 50 years or something. She did not like change, Luke. She did not like change.

RK  13:52  

And so every time there’s change, we think of her. “What would she do about this? She wouldn’t like it.” She didn’t like to have people retire. Whenever there was a doctor or head of [a] department at the Medical Center that retired. [She would say] “Why are they doing this?” 

MJ  14:08  

She just didn’t get it.

RK  14:11  

Like, they’ve got to move on.

LP  14:12  

Thank you for that perspective. Thinking about the entire Duke family, there’s rather a unique connection between the Duke family as a whole and its connections to Duke University. Still to this day. Why do you think that connection holds? Why do you think that connection is still maintained between the family and the University?

RK  14:44  

That’s a good question. Because Stanford, for example, has not done that. And I think, I don’t know — maybe it’s a Southern thing? Maybe it’s because so many of [the] children have been here. And even those that haven’t, feel that connection that has to do with Mother.

MJ  15:08  

I was going to say the same thing. I think that is due to our mother. Because she connected everybody, you know, to Duke. She loved all the basketball games. So, it was that kind of thing. And she loved talking about [the family] — eventually, she talked about her parents, her father, her grandmother, her grandfather, and Uncle Buck. And so I think Mother was the big connect. 

LP  15:43  

And do you feel as her daughters or [for] other Duke family members that there’s a responsibility to continue that legacy?

MJ  15:54  

Yes, we do. Well, just looking back, as Becky was saying about Stanford. You know, it’s just too bad.

LP  16:03  

It’s really special here. That’s my alma mater [for] undergrad — Stanford. So I know exactly what you’re talking about [crosstalk, laughter].

RK  16:12  

It sort of brings my heart to it. At least if I feel that when your children are involved in it, they really care about it, and care about seeing it continue with excellence.

LP  16:31  

To see the family members pass through or to learn —  even the younger generation, not knowing who’s who with all of the connections, right? It’s like, “Wow, there are Duke family members, and that legacy of presence and giving back continues.” So it’s inspiring, in a lot of ways. As you think about the University as a whole, where it’s come from, and where it’s going. Are there particular individuals that you could speak about from the past whom you feel have made a significant impact on the University?

MJ  17:12  

Our mother [laughs]. Well, let me just say that the Duke women were very strong. My mother — her mother gave the Duke Gardens in memory of her mother. Her mother — Sarah P. — was a very strong-willed Southern lady. She was the one who was married to Ben. And so I think if you go back that way, and because Washington Duke’s wife died, and he was left with Ben and Buck. And one of the sisters took over. So, there’s a kind of a long line of strong women. So, I think that Duke is lucky in that way. 

RK  18:04  

But additional people. The one we always think about is Terry Sanford. And it goes without saying that President [William Preston] Few [got us] on the right track and the very beginning. Wonderful. And I’m sure that you’ve probably heard about that from others who are being interviewed. But Terry Sanford had a way with the students and a way with students and faculty. It wasn’t dictatorial. It was, you know, “This is the right thing to do.”

MJ  18:45  

Let’s work together.

RK  18:47  

He signed his letters “Uncle Terry.” So he wasn’t separating himself from the students. And he, I think, made a huge difference. And another one, Mary and I were laughing about this because we remember, was what [historian] Bob Durden called “the Donnybrook at Duke” when Hollis Edens and Paul Gross had their clash. What happened as a result of that changed Duke for the better.

MJ  19:26  

At that point, and I don’t know how much you know about this, but the Duke Endowment and the Board of Trustees had similar trustees. Which was not a very great thing. My mother used to lament those days. But that was when the Duke Endowment broke away from the Board of Trustees, and we had a different board [that] did not overlap.

LP  19:53  

And when was that?

MJ  19:58  

It was [in 1960].

LP  20:07  

And just to come back to this comment, you said what Bob Durden called the conflict — the Donnybrook — What was that, and can you say something about that? 

RK  20:18  

The conflict had a lot to do with governance. And so what came out of it was what Mary was talking about. [Gross] wanted to take the University in one direction, and Eden in another. Although ultimately they wanted the same thing. But it didn’t come out well. So Hollis Edens, I think, resigned at that point. And Paul Gross continued [on by] rather than being, like, Vice President of Education, became head of Chemistry. But it made a big splash everywhere. And that was the point [it] that was important for Duke [to adjust governance] because it became its own thing at that point. Rather than always waiting for the Duke Endowment and checking back with the Duke Endowment for everything.

MJ  21:27  

You know, a lot of people think that Duke University and the Duke Endowment are the same thing. And so it’s been hard to kind of separate the two. And back then, no wonder, because there were similar trustees on both boards.

LP  21:48  

So that’s one pivotal, important historical moment in the history of the University. Are there other moments that you would say have been pivotal in Duke’s history? 

MJ  22:05  

The sit-ins. That was a very big moment.

LP  22:12  

And that was after you had graduated?

MJ  22:16  

Yes, that was after. That’s right.

RK  22:19  

But I was still at Duke. I graduated in ’64, but I was in medical school here until ’68. So, that was important. But the other part that I think was important was [former Duke President Nannerl] Nan Keohane. One of the things that she said that really stuck with me, was “At Radcliffe and Smith, we refer to the women as women. At Duke, why is it ‘girls’?” 

LP  22:57

Even when she came?

MJ  22:58  

Yes, we were all “girls”.

RK  23:00  

And so she said, “That is not the way it’s going to be. Because they’re just as serious, but it trivializes them.” And that was not going to be happening. 

MJ  23:17  

And I think one thing that we don’t need to leave out is the fact that from the very beginning of Duke, women were included. They were not going to give that money unless women had equal footing with men. So, this was very different. Because no other university was doing this. It was women and men together, being educated. 

LP  23:42  

Powerful. Are there other moments [or people] that stand out to you, when you think about Duke?

MJ  23:58  

Once again, Nan and [how] the East Campus became the freshman campus. When we were here, it was the women’s campus. So that was kind of a pivotal moment, too, I think.

RK 1  24:17  

Another one had to do with the Medical School. And of course, the Medical School has always been a source of something [laughs]. Sometimes contention, sometimes praise, but it was always this struggle because the Medical School came to be very well known. More so than the University, and so they sort of ruled things. But the Chancellor — is a Chancellor higher than a President?

LP  24:58  

That’s the question [laughs].

RK  25:02  

Well, it was the Chancellor of the Medical Center. But the President of the University. So, that has been changed since, which is interesting. but Wilburt Davison was the Dean of the Medical School. That was a pivotal moment for the medical school. And he brought along all these youngsters from [Johns] Hopkins and it really put the Medical School on an important track. So I’d say that if you wanted to see pivotal moments for the University, it was also a pivotal moment that the Medical Center was so strong that the University came along, too.

LP  25:49  

They built the strengths together as it move[d] on. When you think about [Duke] — whether it’s the medical side, the university, Duke as a whole — what are some of the things that you are most proud of?

MJ  26:05  

Well, I think one of the things today is how Duke has handled the situation that has been going on in Gaza. I think they kept us out of the papers. And I think that they’ve done a great job of that. They got great advice. I’m really happy about that.

LP  26:30  

And many people have pointed that out. And I think one of the things, from my perspective that has helped, is the relationships of people behind the scenes. The intentional conversations across the various spectrums — whether it’s the Center for Muslim Life, or the Center for Jewish Life, or administrators — ongoing conversations, and including students in that, as well. And also trying to be proactive and constructive, and not reactive. But there’s a new initiative — the Provost’s Initiative on the Middle East — which is related to all of this. But really trying to be a constructive model for the campus as a whole. And it’s, you know, a challenge. But it has thus far, I think, been helpful, constructive, and [done in the] Duke kind of way. From my perspective.

MJ  27:43  

I agree.

RK  27:45  

And building on that, the interdisciplinarity of departments and the communications that have to take place because of that — I think it put Duke on a trajectory that others have not been able to achieve. Because of that communication among departments, and people, and doing things together.

MJ  28:10  

And that’s another [thing that’s] very different than when we were there. You know, it was department, department, department. There wasn’t any interdisciplinary [work]. So that’s been a really, really good thing.

LP  28:28  

I think that’s one of the things that when they bring in admitted students to Duke for the Blue Devils days — that’s what they call that now — if I give the welcome, one of the things [discussed is about] why is Duke special? I speak about the interdisciplinary. Because it really is striking to me.

RK  28:47  

It is.

LP  28:50  

Across these disciplines, across the various departments. And I mean, Duke’s a big place. It’s not perfect. But there’s an attempt to really work together on whatever it might be. And it just stands out in my mind. What would you say — thinking about, Mr. James B. Duke — what would he, and other members of your family, think if they saw Duke University today? What do you think they would think about the university today?

MJ  29:32  

Well, I think that they would be very pleased because, you know, Duke, even though it’s gotten bigger, it’s not huge. I think they didn’t want it to be a huge, enormous university. I think they’d be really happy about that. I think they’d be happy with the way that women are still equal, supposedly equal, as men, and I think they’d be happy about all the new different graduate schools that have come in. I think they’d all be very pleased.

RK  30:09  

I agree. And I think that they would be happy that the Nursing School has come back. 

LP  33:18

It had gone away?

RK

Yes. That was one of Mother’s big regrets, that she was on the Board when they got rid of the Nursing School. But eventually, it came back even better than it was, the way it is now. But I think Mary’s right, that all graduate schools have contributed so much to the overall University. And I think he’d be very happy about that.

MJ  30:44  

You know, the other thing is that Duke is a beautiful University. And the Chapel is always going to be right there, and that was the centerpiece. And then, next, we cannot forget the Duke Gardens. The Duke Gardens are near and dear to my heart. I was just there. But I think that the Duke Gardens have meant a lot to Durham, you know? That Duke-Durham initiative, it has really meant a lot to everybody around here. Duke is the largest employer [in Durham County]. And I just think that they would be very, very proud of that.

LP  31:33  

Well, I know the Chapel and Duke Gardens are two of the top tourist sites in North Carolina. 

MJ  31:40

As well they should be. It’s very peaceful.

LP  31:45  

Very peaceful. Thinking about what they would think, and where Duke is today — reflecting a little bit back on your time as undergrads [and] grad students, are there particular professors, subjects, classes, or even extracurricular activities, things that you were involved in as a student, that you would say, “Wow, this really shaped me or shaped my thinking or view of the world?

RK  32:35  

Well, I was an English major, but I was Pre-Medical. So, I went to school year-round, to get all the requirements in. But I would say you get to know the people and the department of your major the best. And [Literature professor] Clarence Gohdes and Smith But I’m not sure that I would necessarily say that these were people that shaped me, as much as they contributed to who I am.

MJ  33:15  

And at that point, when we were at Duke, they had an Elementary Education major. And that’s what I was in. And I agree, it was all my teachers as a whole that meant a lot to me. I could pick out one, he’s gone now, but his name [was] Mr. Bill Starrs. He taught art. And for some reason, he was just — he was a good teacher, but he knew how to relate to the students. So, I think if you know how to relate to the students, that’s half the battle. 

RK  33:58  

[Professor] James Bonk, he taught [the well-known chemistry course nicknamed] Bonkistry. And he was a big tennis player, too. So you could say, all those sciences that [I] took made a difference? But they all contributed to the whole.

LP  34:19  

Talking about students [as] you’ve mentioned [them] a couple of times. What’s your perspective on the role of students at Duke, and at universities? Do you think there’s something special for the student experience coming through Duke, compared to maybe some other institutions?

MJ  34:41  

Well, I don’t know. I mean, it’s a smaller school so you probably get to know your fellow classmates, and upper and lower classmates a lot better than you would at the University of Pennsylvania, say.

RK  34:56  

That’s probably true today today because of the programs that are being initiated now. When we were freshmen, there wasn’t so much [opportunity for] upperclassmen and freshmen to mix. Now, I think that there’s a real effort to do that because that was missing. When we were there in our dorms, you had freshman, sophomore, you had all four years. And you were there for four years. You got to know them, and you bonded. But then with the freshman campus, they bonded with each other but no one else. And so now there’s been an effort with the QuadEx to make sure that there’s more interaction here, and that they get to know each other. We’ll see how that experiment goes.

MJ  35:54  

It’ll be interesting because we have a grandchild coming [to Duke] in September. So I’ll be interested to hear how he feels about all QuadEx and everything. 

LP  36:09  

Well, let me ask this. The family history that you’ve shared, your own student journey through here, the legacy of the various family members and others you’ve named already — What would you say are your hopes for Duke in the next century? I don’t think any of us will be here [laughs]. But what would you say would be your hopes for Duke?

MJ  36:43  

Well, I was saying to Becky in the car — one thing I hope, and this is not a joke — I hope that Duke does not get rid of the Duke Forest. That Duke Forest, of course, was huge initially. And then they kind of chopped away at it. And of course I know that the hurricane [Hurricane Fran in 1996] came through. But to me that is an integral part of Duke. I mean, that might seem kind of silly. But on the other hand, it’s part of Duke.

RK  37:20  

I have been keeping up a little bit with the Forest. They have a whole enterprise [where] they renew the Forest, and they [work to] reduce the deer population because the deer just wreak havoc in there. But you’re also talking about the fact that there’s so many buildings, and anytime you put up a building you knock down more trees. So Mary said, “I think we’ve got enough buildings.” 

MJ  37:53  

[Laughs] I do. I think we have enough buildings. I mean, the problem is that Duke’s going to become bigger, and bigger, and bigger. And people won’t know each other as well, and I don’t know…

RK  38:08  

I hope that Duke and Durham continue the good relationship because it was not always this way. And we remember those years. Duke might have been the largest employer in the county, but it was separate. It didn’t do anything for Durham. And so on. And that has really changed. And [former Duke VP] Tallman Trask [III] is really responsible [for that].

MJ  38:37 

He did a really wonderful job getting that over to the Board.

RK  38:43  

That was something that was near and dear to Mother’s heart. And I think that the original founders would be very happy to know that Duke is more a part of the region than it has ever been. And the good thing about Duke is that it is a Southern school.

MJ  39:03  

Yeah. It’s not an Ivy League [school]. We don’t want to be an Ivy League. 

RK  39:07  

And that’s another thing. We hope that they continue not to try to emulate [the Ivy League]. And my concern is that Duke will cave — [and] in some respects it has to because of federal funding — but the whole getting rid of DEI, the diversity, equity and inclusion business. I’m really concerned about this. Because look at what’s happening across the street at UNC. I mean, they’re going after them. And they’re linking federal funding to getting rid of DEI. Well, wait a minute. You don’t have to call it that. But do it, you know, do the same thing. 

MJ  39:47

And I agree about that. I mean, Duke has really done a pretty good job of inclusion [and] equity. Something interesting that’s happened is how the grad — didn’t the grad students finally unionize? 

LP  40:14

Yes. 

MJ  40:16

So, you know, Duke’s becoming more with it in that respect. But I agree, it worries me about the federal funding thing.

LP  40:28  

You just mentioned one thing [about] the Southern [school]. What does that mean? So when you say “Southern school”, and wanting to maintain that [distinction] and not be the Ivy’s, what does that mean?

MJ  40:48  

People are still nice [laughs].

RK  41:00

There’s some of that [laughs]. 

MJ  41:04

Listen, I think there is some of that. Not everybody’s nice, but I think they make an effort to learn who people are, to learn…

RK 1  41:18  

Well, it’s part of the communication. It’s not so big, and it is in a community where you talk to each other and [you can] maybe understand where they are coming from. And then they can understand where you’re coming from, and you have more of a relationship. We both went to boarding school in the North, and although those weren’t big universities there was a problem with that. It wasn’t as friendly…

MJ  41:58  

Well, I don’t know, I went to a Quaker boarding school, so they were Friends [laughs]. Gosh, I’ve lost my train of thought. 

RK  42:15  

Well, let me bring up one other thing. We didn’t talk about this but I wanted to mention that one of the things that Mother was so proud of was finally being able to have a statue of Ben Duke on East Campus. That was really important, because she felt that it was Ben who pushed his brother to give money to Duke.

MJ  42:45  

That’s right, he was the one who pushed his brother. The brother had the money, most of the money, but he had it too. And Ben Duke was very generous to Duke and to organizations all over the place. He was the one who pushed his brother to do this. 

RK  43:06  

So that was one of Mother’s dreams, that he should be recognized. His father was there. His brother was there. But there was not anything for Ben. And so that was a big deal to get that statue built and placed on East Campus.

MJ  43:23  

So this is [a topic] back [from] a couple of minutes ago. But I think Duke is very lucky to be aligned with UNC and [NC] State. That’s a really good combination. And we are able, and should be able to really help each other out. Kenan-Flagler, I mean, there are a lot of things that Duke does with UNC. So, I think Duke should be proud of that, because they’re not isolated. They’re not isolating themselves. They’re there in collaboration with other places.

RK  44:07  

I like that, too.

LP  44:08  

Well, you’ve brought us full circle in many ways in bringing us back to Benjamin Duke and James B. Duke. We started with the family, and we’ve come back to the family. And the university, I know as a whole, is so grateful for the legacy of your mother, of your impact and influence on the life of Duke, all of the contributions of the Duke family. I speak on behalf [of Duke] as an employee and as a professor here, and the Dean of the Chapel. The gratitude flows towards your family for all that it continues to do and contribute. So thank you so much for taking the time to share some of your reflections in this Centennial year. And hopefully, we will connect again. We won’t do it in 200 years, but maybe some other time [laughs]. So thank you both for your time.

RK  45:14  

Thank you for yours.

MJ  45:16  

Thank you. Appreciate it.