Centennial Oral Histories:
Dean Sue Wasiolek

Luke Powery  0:19 

I’m Luke Powery, and I’m here with Sue Wasiolek, who we know as Dean Sue. This is for the Duke Centennial Oral History Program. So Dean Sue, it’s a great privilege to be with you. I have a lot of things to ask you, but you came to Duke as a student, and you’ve been at Duke in a variety of roles and ways for almost 50 years. Why did you decide to come to Duke, and what’s kept you at Duke?

Sue Wasiolek  1:00 

Great questions, Luke, and thanks for doing this. I really appreciate it, and it’s truly an honor to be here, to be part of this program, [and] to be interviewed by you. So thank you. I grew up in North Carolina. My family was originally from New Jersey, [and] I was born in New Jersey, but we landed down in North Carolina. My dad worked in textiles. He was a mill worker, and he got transferred to Charlotte, which is where I grew up. [I was the] first generation in college. So I really didn’t know much. I truly didn’t know what was going on in this world of college. But I knew, and I knew from the earliest age I can remember, that I was going to need to pay my way. There was not going to be any money. But I discovered that there was this thing called financial aid, and I applied for that in all the schools that I applied to. So, I narrowed down my choices of schools to UNC-Chapel Hill [and] UNC-Greensboro — which at the time offered a full ride for women, because the Morehead, now known as the Morehead-Cain [Scholarship], was only available to men. So I got a full ride to UNCG. I also had scholarships to UNC and to North Carolina State [University].

And then I had a financial aid package at this place called Duke. And my financial aid package consisted of a grant, a loan, and work-study money. And somebody told me, my counselor in high school, she said, “You know, I’ve heard that Duke is probably a better school.” She said, “I think it’s where students who have really achieved in high school tend to go.” People just didn’t know very much about Duke 50 years ago. And so I decided to come to Duke. It was that simple. My favorite color is red. So I came really close to going to North Carolina State. And I wouldn’t have had a loan, I wouldn’t have had a job, I would have had just a full ride at State. But this place called Duke was very intriguing to me, because I had heard it was a really good school. [I had] never been here. The farthest north I had traveled on I-85 was Burlington, so I had never seen Durham or Duke. But I decided that it seemed like the right place for me. There was a student that I knew well in my high school who had come here before me and he spoke very highly of it. So I came with very little information, very little knowledge, of what Duke was all about. I did know that there were fewer people in my junior high [and] in my high school who were fans of Duke. Most of the students that I knew pulled for UNC in sports. And I thought, “Well, maybe that school, that school called Duke, [needs] more fans, so I think I’ll go there.”

LP  4:25 

Well, you’ve been one of the big fans, for sure [laughs].

SW  4:28 

That part has been fun. It has not been hard. But it was not a well-informed decision.

LP  4:36 

Now, through your various roles what has kept you at Duke?

SW  4:41 

Yeah, it’s a great question. I struggled as an undergrad. Socially, academically. I just didn’t do well. I never felt like I fit in. I never felt like I belonged. And I didn’t really like it here. So I decided to stay for graduate school [laughs]. For no good reason, except they had a program that I was interested in. I was Pre-Med [but] didn’t get into medical school. I was a terrible student in undergrad. Talked my way into graduate school in Health Administration. Thought I would go to grad school and do better in school, which I did, and then reapply to medical school. To make a very long story short, it turned out that healthcare was not my strength. I worked at Duke for a year and a half in healthcare. But while I was in graduate school, I became an RA. And for the first time at Duke, I felt like I belonged. But I don’t think I really fully understood that until I realized I didn’t want to work in health care. I was looking for another job. I was married at the time. My husband was a schoolteacher here in Durham [and] loved what he was doing. And so I told friends, “I don’t think I want to do this healthcare thing.” And they said, “Well, there’s this job in Student Affairs, and you loved being an RA. Why don’t you apply for that job?” I did. I got it. And I found my passion, and that was working with students. That age is just magical. It’s magical. And it still is, like to this day I still feel this magic being around sort of 18-to-22-year-olds. So, the students are what kept me here. Their engagement. Their challenges. They didn’t let me get away with anything. I couldn’t just give them a line, as an adult. As my mother would say, “Do as I say, not do as I do.” That didn’t go over well with Duke students, and I learned that very early on. I just loved the way, I still do love the way, they challenge me. Particularly intellectually. They are so much smarter than I am, and they always have been. And there’s something about that I really like.

LP  7:17 

Now, you’re talking about the students. Obviously you’re beloved, and have been [beloved].

SW  7:23 

Oh, that’s very kind. I don’t want to talk about that part. Let’s just talk about the students.

LP  7:27 

They came up with a term — Dean Sue. Where did that come from? How did that start?

SW  7:41 

Joe Taylor. I don’t know if Joe will ever see this interview, and I haven’t talked to Joe in decades, but Joe was on what was at the time called the FAC Steering Committee, [it] evolved to the FAC Board and is now Orientation Leaders. So Joe was an orientation leader. And when I was named Dean of Students, Joe was part of the many groups that I sort of had responsibility for. He said, “You’re now a dean. You’re not an assistant to the dean. You’re the dean. And people are going to want to call you Dean, but that last name, it’s too much. Nobody can spell it. No one knows how to pronounce it. It’s intimidating, so I am going to recommend that people call you Dean Sue.” I said, “Joe, I don’t really care. Like it really does not matter to me. Whatever you want to do is fine.” So he started to call me Dean Sue. And that was the beginning of my name.

Most people think my last name is Sue. I have had many opportunities to call students at home — over the summer, over breaks, and back in the day when their parents would answer the home phone, the landline. I would say, “Hello, this is Sue Wasiolek. Can I talk with Luke?” And they would say, “Who?” And I would say, “Sue Wasiolek, I’m calling from Duke.” “Who?” I’d say, “I work in Student Affairs. I’m the Dean of Students.” “Oh, Dean Sue.” I’d say, “Yeah.” So no one knew my name, and I think there’s still a lot of people who don’t know my name. But that term is really today only used by the folks who remember. I don’t really know what students — some students still call me Dean Sue today. That’s how it came about. And the cooler thing is that my email address is Dean dot Sue [dean.sue]. Because back in the day, when you got to pick your email address and it was not assigned to you, one of my colleagues who was responsible for my calendar [and] for my life, she said, “Can I pick your email address?” I said, “Whatever, sure.” And she picked Dean dot Sue, because she didn’t want to have to spell my last name to people as she was answering the phone or whatever. “What’s her email address?” “Dean dot Sue.”

LP  10:46 

With all your experience with students — [and] being a student, being an RA, etc. — in all these years, how have things shifted with students on college campuses, or at Duke in particular? What have you seen [and] experienced, just to share some of your insights and wisdom?

SW  11:12 

They’ve changed dramatically. Duke students have gotten, I would say, much more intellectual. I think they come here for a whole host of reasons, knowing more. They just know more in terms of facts [and] information. That, of course, has grown exponentially with the introduction of the computer, and the Internet, and just the access to information. Students, I think, are more curious in many ways than they used to be. They’ve always been curious, but now there is a heightened level of intellectualism and curiosity. Students are more achievement-oriented than they used to be. Again, they’ve always been on a track of wanting to succeed, and do well, and contribute. But today, this notion of achievement and accomplishment, I think, is even greater. But the students of the past were also all of those things, and I think from an admissions standpoint, and I don’t know this because I’ve never worked in admissions, but I’ve certainly talked to a lot of folks in admissions, this notion of balance was always emphasized for Duke students. Duke students took great pride in the 1980s and the 1990s — early 1990s — of being balanced. They weren’t experts in anything. They sort of knew a little bit of everything, but not a lot of any one thing. They liked being able to weave themselves into conversations about anything. They weren’t experts, and they took great pride in that. They really liked that that’s who they were.

I swore I would never say this phrase, but I’m going to say it. I’m going to violate my own rule. This notion of “work hard and play hard,” and I don’t like to use that, because it’s a mantra that was prevalent at Duke for a number of years. But it’s been prevalent in schools around the country. But they liked that. They liked the fact that they were smart and they were committed to their studies, but they could also be very social and they liked to socialize. So that was who they were. Over time that has shifted. I don’t know that the “work hard [and] play hard” [philosophy] has shifted and changed. I think it has, dramatically. But I think that students are much more inclined to talk about expertise. And to talk about, not just talk about, but work towards an area of expertise. This notion of a senior thesis. I think about 25% of Duke students complete a senior thesis. That’s something that at least 25% of them like to do, and want to do. They want to be able to achieve expertise or demonstrate expertise in a certain area. That was not as prevalent 40 years ago, even 30 years ago.

Students are also much more interested in making certain that their extracurricular activities align with, many times, their career goals. They seem to think that everything that they do has to fit together for a purpose. It has to be a piece of the puzzle that defines them. I think that the students of the past were a little bit more laid-back. A lot more laid-back. They took things as [they] came. But you know, you have to remember, I arrived right on the heels of the Vietnam War, free love, flower power. Duke was at a very different place in its history. Students have changed in so, so many ways. And if you lay on top of that all the technology that has been introduced into the world, we could spend hours just talking about how, at least in my opinion, that has changed students. Students of the 1980s and early 1990s, even, if you were looking for a summer job, you were a lifeguard. You waited tables. You might work in an office answering the phone. You might work as a camp counselor. You don’t hear about students doing those things anymore in the summer. Because that summer internship is going to lay the foundation for whatever they think their first job might be. So the world has changed. The students have changed. They’ve had to adapt to each other. I don’t know if that answers your question or not.

LP  16:55 

Oh, yeah.

SW  16:56 

But all of those things have shifted and changed.

LP  17:00 

I think, obviously as you know, one of the big emphases at universities, Duke included, is around wellness [and] well-being. I know you have a kind of — I don’t know, focus may not be the right word — but you see the importance of that. For everyone, not just students. But how do you perceive the role of health in the life of a Duke student? And related to that, what are some of the common issues that you have seen with students today as it relates to wellness and well-being?

SW  17:43 

I think from the pre-womb to death, we should be focusing more on this notion of health and wellness. I don’t think it’s ever too soon or ever too late to think about our bodies, our minds, our emotions, our spirit, and to figure out how we are taking care of ourselves and taking care of all aspects of ourselves so that we can flourish — in all aspects of our lives. I wish I could tell you that I have flourished in all aspects of my life. I wish I could tell you that my health was perfect. But I can tell you that it’s always been a focal point for me, and I attribute that to my mother who took me to a vitamin store when I was five years old. I want you to think about that. That was 65 years ago. And so she sort of taught me from a very early age, this woman who had no formal education, that taking care of this — I might use a biblical term here, which I know nothing about and I’m going way out on a limb — but she taught us that this [body] and whatever is surrounding us is truly a temple. It is something that is sacred and we need to take care of it. Because when it’s working well, everything in our lives will work well.

So, you think about that in terms of being a student at Duke. And you think about students really positioning themselves to flourish here. To me, the first thing that they should understand and really appreciate is taking care of themselves. Just taking care of all of that stuff I just mentioned. So I think it’s at the core. It’s at the core of everything that we should be doing. Whether that is in the Chapel, or in the classroom, or on the quad, or in a club or organization. Everything that we do should be done through this lens of taking care of ourselves. Now, is it perfect? No. Are we always perfect? No. Are we always going to make the right decision? No. But there ought to be this mindset, I think, of wellness with everything that we do. And I will just tell you, I have a very unique opportunity right now. I’m working for a startup company. And we are teaching confidence to seven to 11 year olds. And I won’t get into all the details of how we’re doing that. But the founder of that company is trying to start a brand new school. And at the heart of that school is going to be this notion of wellness. There’s going to be a time and a place, in every single day, to take care of all of the dimensions of wellness for these children. So my hope is that we are going to be really promoting many, many more generations that are going to focus more on their health and wellness.

To apply that more directly to Duke, I’m just delighted that we have a facility on the campus that speaks to that. I think Duke made a huge investment in student health and wellness when it decided to build a wellness center for students that brought all of those aspects together. And I don’t know if you’ve been up on the third floor of that building and looked out the window, but it is a perfect view of the [Duke] Chapel. It’s one of the most beautiful views of the Chapel that you will see on this campus. And the architects did that intentionally. Very, very intentionally. Because they understood when they were designing that building all the various aspects of health and wellness. And they understood the spiritual component. And they understood the importance of the Chapel, and the Chapel being a centerpiece. So, when you go up to that third floor and you look out that window, — and I’ll be happy to take you on a tour. It’s not 239 steps to the top, but you can see the top. It’s just an incredible view. And I think it’s a representation to the students that this experience — this existence — is bigger than just us. There’s more to it. But that facility is more than just symbolic — the health and wellness building. It is an absolute manifestation of Duke’s commitment to making certain that institutionally we are committed to student health and wellness. So it’s one of the things that I am really, really delighted about that Duke committed to.

LP  23:07 

That’s great. All the way since you were five.

SW  23:09 

Since I was five. Little did I know that that would happen. But it’s — when you build a place like that, you know, when you create something like that, what you lose is what was. And so there are very few people who are ever going to have a full appreciation for what student health looked like before. What the counseling center looked like before. Just to name a few. You know, people are going to say, “Oh, of course, we have a meditation garden, doesn’t everybody?” No. Many schools do, but not everybody. So I’m very committed to health and wellness, and I’m very committed to it in the classroom. And I try to create a classroom that is at least what I believe to be healthy.

LP  24:03 

Just to stay with the health piece, one of the statistics — I don’t know what the current stats are — but [related to] mental health, in higher ed, and here at Duke, as well, the challenges of young people. What do you think is at the root of those challenges? I have teenagers, and I’m just wondering [that about] this generation.

SW  24:30 

There’s been a lot written. I could name some names like Jean Twenge and Jonathan Haidt, and all the people who are attributing much of it to the introduction of the smartphone in 2007 [and] 2008. The introduction of social media. The lack of any real boundaries in using those things. You know, we’re seeing schools now ban smartphones and we’re seeing parents limit the amount of time their children can stay on social media. Is that the answer? Will that work? Is that the cause of all of this explosion or crisis related to mental health issues? I think it’s a combination of a lot of things. I think those things have certainly contributed.

I’m going to go out on a limb here a bit, and hope that someone doesn’t cut it off. But you know, I think parenting styles have changed a lot. These last couple generations of students, of children, will report [and] have reported that they consider their relationship with their parents to be one of the best relationships they have. If you ask students who are even in their late 20s, early 30s — or young people in their late 20s, early 30s — if you ask students who are right now in middle school and high school, difficult years where they’re turning against adults, they will still tell you that their heroes are their parents. [Their parents are] the people that they admire the most. I wouldn’t have said that necessarily about my mother and father. Maybe you would have. I mean, there were things about my mom and dad that I really, really respected and had enormous regard for. But there were things about them that I wanted to do differently, like I wanted to improve upon some things. And if you talk with a lot of the students today, young people today, they’re like, “No, I can tell my parents everything. I do tell them everything. After a test, I’m texting them immediately when I don’t do well. I get in touch with them. They’re the first people I call. I know they’ve got my back. I know they’re going to protect me.”

And I think that’s a really powerful word. “They are going to protect me.” And so I think in some ways, this notion of adulthood — and I’m not this is nothing new, there’s a lot written about this — has been delayed. Legally we’re adults at the age of 18, but psychologically now I think adulthood begins at the age of 32 or 33. Up until that point, we are emerging adults. So having the best relationship with your parents may not be the best long-term. I’ll just throw that out there [laughs]. People, decades from now can think, “Oh, my God, she was brilliant.” Or, “What a foolish thing to think.” Because who knows where that’s going to lead. But we do know that children [and] students today rely more on their parents than certainly my generation ever did. We just didn’t consult our parents over everything, and we didn’t go to them first. And we have this thing called a GPS. I bet you can tell me where your children are right now, if you have your phone,

LP  28:29 

I don’t track them.

SW  28:30 

Well, you’re rare. You’re unusual. Because most parents do. And they track their parents. Do your children track you?

LP  28:40 

I don’t know, and I don’t want to know [laughs]. But that mechanism to track..

SW  28:47 

That mechanism to track. And so this notion of always being connected, always knowing — that sense of safety and security may have backfired a bit. And maybe that’s where this whole evolution of mental health challenges has come from, in addition to all of the technology. What do you think?

LP  29:14 

No, you’re the interviewee [laughs]. I could talk about this for [ages], but there are other things to discuss.

SW  29:22 

I don’t have all the answers, but I’ll give you an example. I’ll give you just a quick example. I have [had] the good fortune of meeting with lots of alums over the years. And many times they bring their children to campus, obviously, to visit. And they stop by. Some stop by because they want me to give their child some advice on the college application process or whatever. But it’s not unusual for a conversation to go like this: “Dean Sue, I’d like for you to meet my son, Luke.” “Hi, Luke. Nice to meet you. So Luke, tell me a little bit about you.” Parent chimes in, “Oh, Luke is a great student. Luke is, oh, he’s a member of the National Honor Society. He’s a tri-captain of the lacrosse, football, and basketball teams. He started the Spanish club.” Luke has yet to say a word, by the way. So, that’s okay. “So Luke, tell me about the schools in which you’re interested to apply for college.” Parent answers, “Well, we’re applying. ‘We’ are applying. And ‘we’ are visiting. And ‘we’ are working on the applications. And ‘we’.” Very different answer than I would have gotten 20 years ago from a parent. So, I’ve learned to not invite the parent into those meetings. Depending on what the purpose of the meeting is and if I really want to get to know that child, then I leave the parent out in the lobby and then bring them in later.

LP  31:11 

Wow, lots of wisdom there.

SW  31:13 

I don’t know that there’s any wisdom. It’s just observations. Just observations.

LP  31:17 

Well, let me just shift away a little bit from the insights on students and Duke students — but obviously some of your answers may still point in that direction. Two things. What moments in Duke history do you consider to be pivotal? And I would say then, on the flip side, what individuals — these could overlap — in the history of Duke would you consider to be pivotal or [think that] they made a significant impact?

SW  31:59 

I would say the selection and appointment of every single president since I have been here has been pivotal. And I think Duke has done a remarkable job of selecting the president that needed to be here at that time. I particularly look back on [former Duke President] Terry Sanford because of his political prowess and the need for someone who could really recognize the political hotbed in many ways that Duke was back in the 1970s and the early 1980s, coming off of the Civil Rights Movement. Doug Knight had been the president here. That was not a good match. But Terry Sanford understood civil rights. He understood their significance and challenge in the South. He understood, I think, what it meant when Duke integrated. He understood the importance of that, the significance. And he understood, in ways that are still remarkable to me, when to be here, when not to be here, [and] when to delegate. He was an incredible decision maker. And for all I know, others may not have seen him that way. But as a student here during his time, I always felt like he was always here. And I’m not sure he was. But he just had that political savvy. I’ll call it political, I shouldn’t use that word because it means, I think, something different today. But he knew how to handle those leadership responsibilities. How to juggle those.

I think when Keith Brodie became president, he took on a very different institution than when Terry Sanford did. We had started to move from being regional to being a hotter school, and nationally [known]. And he saw that Duke was growing. He saw that Duke needed to grow, that we were not going to be as informal with some of the ways that we did things. And I think he — some people would probably disagree with this, and I disagreed with it at the time, but looking back on it — I think he did what he needed to do. And that was, he really allowed the schools to operate more independently and more autonomously. This notion of a decentralized institution was really born, I think, during his time. He was sort of like, “Duke Chapel? Yes, you go and be the best Duke Chapel you can possibly be.” “Duke history department? You go be the best Duke history department you can be.” The Institute of whatever? You go be the best institute you can be.” And I think we had lots of very, very, very strong places emerge here.

And then Nan [Nannerl] Keohane came and sort of put them all back together. She took that decentralized, very strong, independent, autonomous [set of] entities and tried to bring them back together. And recognize that from a facilities standpoint, we really needed to expand and to grow. And I think that Dick Brodhead continued that. And all of those presidents really recognized the international scope, and the international reach that Duke could achieve. And they allowed that to happen. And I think there was a recognition after Dr Brodhead that there were some things that probably didn’t need to necessarily be changed, they didn’t necessarily need to grow. There were some things we needed to maintain. And we now have Vince Price. So I would say that all of our presidents have been enormously pivotal.

I also can’t help but mention two people — and there are so many more than these two, but I’m going to mention these two. And one is still here, one is retired. And I think that they — and I’m thinking of more names as I think of these two — were so important in establishing a relationship with Durham from an economic standpoint. And that is [Associate Vice President for Capital Assets] Scott Selig and [former Vice President] Tallman Trask. They worked together. The renaissance of Durham — and I’m not talking about the Duke-Durham partnership with the schools that so many people were involved with, and I’m sorry to not mention all of those folks — but just the renaissance of Durham, they were absolutely pivotal in the way that they managed negotiating the use of space in downtown Durham. Not building new space, but telling developers and others, “If you build, we will lease. We will rent that space.” And that made a huge, huge difference in being able to infuse Duke’s financial resources into the city without building another building that was going to be property tax free because we were Duke. So just a brilliant, brilliant way that that worked. I would say it’s hard to think of the last 50 years and not think of Coach K [Mike Krzyzewski]. And to have been here when he was hired — he and I both started, I started in the dean’s position and he started in the head coaching position at about the same time. We’re both Polish. That was really cool.

LP  38:32 

We need the Dean Sue Court or something.

SW  38:36 

I don’t think so. No, no, I can’t dribble or pass or make a basket. But to have watched him arrive, and in his first three-ish years to be so unsuccessful. And for people who are still alive today to create an organization called the Concerned Iron Dukes, separate and apart from the institution and go to Terry Sanford and go to the AD [Athletic Director] at the time, Tom Butters, and say, “You need to fire this man.” And for the two of them to say, “No, we’re sticking with him.” So kudos to Tom Butters and to Terry Sanford, but particularly to Coach K for having done what he has done at this place. It’s pretty remarkable. And a lot of people don’t remember the Concerned Iron Dukes. It’s 40 years ago, 40-plus years ago. But we’ve had some incredible leaders here that stayed the course when the course needed to be stayed. But the presidents. As I said, Tom Butters, Coach, K, Tallman Trask. I’m just going to give a shout-out to Scott Selig, although he is still here. And there are a lot of people in the Health System that I could certainly name, as well. I think of people like [economist] Juanita Kreps, you know, just as women. And I think of women from the Women’s College that I actually knew. Someone like Mary Grace Wilson, who was the Dean of Women. None of them are here any longer but, you know, we all have benefited from being able to stand on their shoulders. All of those people.

LP  40:52 

[Crosstalk] you naming, obviously, those in the past [and] even some current people. How has Duke changed?

SW  41:01 

I’m going to name one more. I gotta name the guy who hired me as a dean. Got to name the man who did that. He was the first Vice President for Student Affairs, and I’ll just tell you a little bit about him. His name is Bill [William] Griffith. Bill is still alive. He lives over at the [Duke Forest. He’s got to be 96 or 97 [years old]. He’ll probably be 97 in June. Bill was there with Doug Knight. Because Doug Knight, when he was president and all hell was breaking loose on this campus with the takeover of the Allen Building, the storming of the President’s house, the silent vigil, Doug’s strength was not in working with students. But Bill Griffith’s was. And Bill was the Dean of Men. There was a Dean of Women. Those two were merged in 1972 to the Dean of Student Affairs, which Bill became. And then in 1979, Bill became the Vice President for Student Affairs. And that position, of course, still exists today. It’s got a dual appointment with the provost, so it’s a vice president and vice provost. But Bill was the person who laid the foundation for what Student Affairs is today. That was the first recognition, when that position was created, that there was this robust life outside the classroom. Like what students did in residence halls, and learned in residence halls, and what students learned through clubs and organizations, and being on student government, and being in the university union. That all of those things, those experiential aspects of their lives outside the classroom, mattered. And that was his gift to this place. So a shout-out to Bill Griffith, thank you. And you were asking how Duke has changed?

LP  43:15 

Yes, what things would you name that in terms of what stand out to you about changes [at Duke]?

SW  43:23 

Well it’s significantly bigger. The enrollment hasn’t increased all that much undergraduate-wise. It’s increased some. We’ve had to build some new residence halls. I know the engineering school had a very, very intentional increase in their enrollment for four years [of] 50 students a year. So they added 200 students over four years. Trinity has added some students, but maybe 1000-ish, maybe a little bit more. But we’ve maintained that sort of secret size, you know, that special size, of not being too small [or] too big. You know, we’ve been that Duke size. But if you look at the professional schools and the graduate schools, they have grown exponentially. Particularly the master’s programs have grown enormously. So we think about the enrollment at Duke, and people are shocked when you tell them there are 6,800 undergrads and over 10,000 graduate professional students. That just can’t be. But it is. So that has shifted and changed.

I don’t know that I can put a finger on how it’s changed — the institution — sort of at that meta level. But [Duke] has certainly changed. Facility-wise, the size of staffs, the size of faculty, and the reputation of the institution. It’s sort of — how do we decide where our reputation comes from? Is it at the undergraduate level? Is it at the graduate [and] professional school level? I think it’s a combination of both. But I think we underestimate sometimes the impact that the graduate [and] professional schools have had on everything related to Duke. The size, the facilities, the scope, the reputation, the diversity of the institution.

You know, when I came to Duke in 1973 it was pretty Southern-ish. It was very white and it was very male. So when I was at Duke as an undergrad, I had two or three women professors my entire time. And they were all in education. They were all in education. If I had been in the School of Nursing, there would have been many female faculty. But in Trinity College in 1973 there were very, very few. Anne [Firor] Scott is the one who comes to my head. She was in the Department of History. But I just didn’t have many female faculty members. So, fast forward to today. If we look at the racial and ethnic diversity of our faculty, if we look at the gender diversity of our faculty and of our student body, it’s just in a totally different place. International students, yes, a few, but not very many. And this notion of study abroad. I think close to if not 50% of our students go abroad now. It was a very small number of students who went abroad.

East Campus is now a first-year campus. It has evolved over my time. Right before I got here, it was the Women’s College. Then it was a merged conglomeration of East and West, of all kinds of residential opportunities. East tried to be a mirror of West. Didn’t work real well. And in 1995, East became all freshmen. It has maintained that identity up until today. But that was very different. And there are still graduates at the Women’s College who, frankly, are [now] pretty pleased with the identity of East Campus. But they didn’t like the merger of the two back in 1972. We’re international. I mean, we’re just international. We’re not a regional Southern school anymore. We are one of the most selective schools in the country.

And we have been able somehow, I think in a very unique way, to excel in athletics. I don’t know how much longer we’ll be able to say that in the same way that I mean it today, because I think we’re seeing a huge shift there. But you know, I think we can still refer to our students who play varsity sports here as student athletes. Club sports have exploded over my time here. We used to have intramurals and varsity, but this notion of having, I don’t know, 1700 or 1800 students involved in club sports, that’s a pretty big deal. To go from 100 clubs and organizations to 400 or 500 clubs. [In the] early 1980s, we had one acapella group. We now have nine, something like that. To go from the early 1980s, when the retrenchment report said that we should minimize the arts at Duke and all things of a cultural nature — cultural meaning the arts — and we now have the Ruby -The Rubenstein Arts Center]. We have the Nasher [Museum of Art]. We have over 15 dance groups. We have majors in dance. We have many, many students who not only focus on the arts from an academic standpoint, but from an extracurricular standpoint. That is mind boggling. And there are a lot of alums who don’t understand why students don’t attend more sporting events. I’m like, “There’s more going on. There’s just more to it.” Students have broader interests today than they used to.

LP  50:06 

Thinking about Duke and the Centennial, what are you proud of as you think about Duke?

SW  50:18 

It blows my mind that I’ve been here 51 of those 100 years [laughs]. I just have to say that, like, where did they go? How did that happen? That was never my intent. I’ve talked to you already about why I stayed so long, and I want to add one more thing about why I stayed so long. The opportunities have been incredible. Just as I might have been feeling a little stale or bored, something came up. Something came up. I got an opportunity to be on an exciting search committee, or I got a chance to be faculty in residence. Or I got to teach. There was something that was added that just was like, “It’s now better than ever.” So the opportunities. And I think our students see that as well.

LP  51:10 

Would you say those things, what you just said, are a part of what’s given you joy?

SW  51:17 

Oh, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. But at the heart of that has always been the students. Because people say, “Oh, you wouldn’t have a university without faculty.” Well, that’s true. But you know, the faculty would be here as a think tank or a research institute if it weren’t for the students. So for me, the heart is the students. And when I walk into a classroom, I am not at the center, they are. And that will always be the case, as far as I’m concerned. But over the last 100 years, what was your question?

LP  51:53 

What are you proud of, as you think of Duke?

SW  52:02 

Gosh, there’s so many things. I’m really very proud of our commitment to this thing we call excellence. That Duke really does try to be excellent in everything that it does. We strive for that. We’re just not a mediocre place. You know, Duke University, the mediocre university [laughs]. And I think we’ve paid a price for that, too. We’ve instilled that in our students and that may contribute somewhat to this achievement and accomplishment mindset. But I’m very proud of that. I’m proud of people wanting to do the very best. I’m proud of the innovative programs, whether it has been the FOCUS program, or DukeEngage, or Duke Immerse, or all the things related to study away global education. Whether it’s been Duke’s willingness to examine itself, Whether it’s the curriculum, although I think we took a little longer than I would have liked to take a look at that. But Duke is just always trying to do better, always trying to improve, never really [being] satisfied with where it is.

And I also think that I’m proud of, frankly, the resources that we’ve had. Those of us who have been the beneficiary of those resources, being able to innovate and to really create new programs. We’ve been lucky. We’ve been really lucky. I don’t know if you feel that way. But I know that you’ve been the beneficiary of those opportunities, and I think so many of us have. I am very proud of Duke’s commitment to health and wellness. I know we’ve talked about that already, but I hope that it will continue to do that. I was very proud of its commitment to the Healthy Duke initiative, which got with COVID — you know [it] kind of had its moment. And I’m so proud of our alums. Folks who’ve gone through this place have just gone on to do some of the coolest stuff. And I had the very good fortune of knowing many of them in their developing years. Where their frontal lobes were not fully in place. Where their decision-making was not always the best. And yet they’ve gone on to grow up to be some of the most successful and cool people. So, it’s been a joy for me to be able to see them when they were 18, and many of them now in their 60s. And to know their children, to know their siblings, to have gotten to know many of their parents. And to just watch the full development of individuals, of families, of communities that they’ve been a part of. Not very many people have an opportunity to do that at the same place for five decades. And to watch individuals and to watch a university really just grow and develop and mature. And develop a reputation.

LP  56:36 

Talking about the development of frontal lobes.

SW  56:42 

You have two children?

LP  56:44 

I do [laughs]. You, Peter Feaver, and Anne Crossman co-authored a book.

SW  56:52 

And if you could talk to Peter and Anne for me — it’s called Getting The Best Out of College.  I know you have a question [laughs].

LP  57:02 

What’s the most important advice [in] that book?

SW  57:09 

There’s a lot of advice.

LP  57:11 

I’m going to buy it.

SW  57:12 

Well, you know, good luck. I mean, there are still some copies over at the Gothic in the Duke bookstore. But it came out in 2008, so I want you to know it is outdated. It was updated in 2012. So we came out with the second edition. And I really have been trying to convince Anne and Peter that we need to do a third edition, because we need to add some things in there about technology. Peter and I have continued to teach. I lived in a residence halls for almost 10 years. So I think there are some things that we need to add to that book. But I can’t seem to get their attention. So maybe you could talk to Peter for me about that [laughs].

The best advice. I think one of the things that is in that book that continues to be something that I share with students routinely, all the time, and I tell high school students, I tell everybody [is that] your major does not define your career. So what you major in in college is not what defines what your life will be and look like. And so you need to pick something in college that you just really love to study. Either you found some great professors, or you found something about it that just really, really lights your fire. You love to read about it, you like to talk about it, you like to study it. And that is not necessarily related to your career. So I’m going to go and ask you, what was your major as an undergrad?

LP  59:09

Oh, music.

SW  59:11

So, I know you sing when you preach. I know you have continued to develop your interest in music, and music is very much the heart of who you are. But you’re the Dean of the Duke Chapel. And you have been a theologian, you have been a preacher, you are a man of the cloth. So music did not define your career trajectory. I was a science education major, pretty much biology. And you know, we can find people where their major does have a closer connection to what that career has been. But I really work so hard at encouraging students to find that intellectual passion. I didn’t find it as an undergrad. I didn’t. I found it later, stumbled upon it. And it still hasn’t defined my career. But I love studying and reading the law. I never imagined going to law school. And now I teach law. But it still doesn’t define who I am. So I really think that’s one of the things —  in that book that we wrote in 2008 — that many, many years later is still true.

LP  1:00:58 

Thank you. One final question. As we look at Duke going into its second century, what are your hopes for Duke?

SW  1:01:08 

I hope I live to be 150. My hope for Duke is that it finds great comfort in being a leader in higher education. I think it’s hard today to be a leader in higher ed. Our world, our country, and this thing we call higher education — colleges and universities, the whole thing — everything we do today, is so impacted by fear. And I hope that Duke will not be pulled back and pulled down by fear, and will instead be inspired by what it has been able to be inspired by over the last many years. And that is being a leader, being willing to take a risk, being willing to be innovative, and being willing to step out of line. Stepping out of the line. And doing things because they think it’s the right thing to do, and not because they think it’s what everybody else is doing. That’s what I hope.

PP  1:02:36 

Thank you. Thank you, Dean Sue, thanks so much for everything you’ve given us.

SW  1:02:42 

Thank you, Luke. You’re so kind to do this interview. Thank you.

LP  1:02:45 

Thank you.

SW  1:02:46 

It’ll be interesting to see where this thing lands. Will it end up in a time capsule someplace? Will anybody ever watch it? It doesn’t matter. I’ve enjoyed our time together. Thank you.

LP  1:02:55 

It’s been great.

SW  1:02:56 

Thanks.