Centennial Oral Histories:
Coach Michael Krzyzewski

Peter Feaver  0:19 

Welcome. My name is Peter Feaver, and I have the privilege of interviewing the face of Duke University for the Duke Centennial Oral History Program. Welcome Coach. It’s a real honor.

Mike Krzyzewski  0:31 

It’s always good to be with you, and with our audience.

PF  0:35 

I think more than any other individual over the last 30-40 years, you came to embody Duke for so many people. Whether they were at Duke, or just watching Duke from afar. So talk to us a little bit about what that’s like, when you have to carry an institution on your face — for better or for worse.

MK  0:55 

Well, you become kind of an ambassador for the school, which I am now. It’s not a new job, I’ve been doing it since I got here. Although the first few years, I’m not sure people wanted me to be their ambassador. But we were on TV all the time for 42 seasons here. And for 21 of them, we were a number one team in the country. [I] coached in over 250 games. We were number one in the country, national champs. You get all that attention. And the guys I coached were such good guys, and magnificent players. And so our team and Duke University [were] one, but [they] became one publicly, more. I think it’s had a positive influence on everything Duke does. You know, Peter, what I liken it to is being in New York during Christmas time. You walk down Fifth Avenue, and there’s Saks Fifth Avenue, the store, and you look at all the amazing things — the displays — and that’s who we were. And you say, “I should walk in.” And you walk in, and there’s eight to 10 floors of the different departments — law, medicine, you name it. And so I just thought we were the good marketing area for Duke and boy, did we have a lot to market.

PF  2:26 

Indeed. But I suspect you weren’t that ambitious when you first got here. Or if you were, you weren’t that hopeful that you’d be able to realize those ambitions. People have heard the story before, but I want you to tell it briefly. What was it like during those first years, what drew you to Duke, and then tell us how you were able to stay at Duke?

MK  2:47 

Well, I always wanted to be a coach. I graduated from [United States Military Academy] West Point. Served five years in the military. Spent a year at Indiana going for my graduate degree — an MBA — then I was an MBA dropout. Then I got the West Point job. And I had looked at Vanderbilt after my fourth year, and was really offered the Iowa State job after my fifth year, but I was in contention for Duke. And I didn’t know that much about Duke. I knew about the ACC [Atlantic Coast Conference]. But I said, “I’m gonna go for that.” And I was [inaudible] favorite, and went to two interviews. I went to Lexington, Kentucky — Duke was playing. Ironically, that’s where [University of] Kentucky is. [Then] West Lafayette, Indiana. And then finally I came to Duke for an interview. And when I walked around Duke on my own — I still get chills thinking about it because I love Duke. I said, “This is a special place.” I wanted to coach here but after walking around, I wanted to be a part of this university.

PF  4:01 

What do you think you were picking up on, in those early years?

MK  4:06 

You know, there’s a feel for our school. And it’s a people feel. I think we’re the best people school in the world. I think we’re the best school in the world. But we were unique. And [the] people are friendly people. They weren’t as friendly to me my first few years. Yeah, we didn’t win that many games. They were unsure if they should be friendly. But my Athletic Director Tom Butters, and President [Terry] Sanford, were totally supportive. But I just felt right away that Duke was unique. And I still feel that way as we continue to grow and become this worldwide brand. I think we’re the best.

PF  4:52 

So talk a little bit about your conversations with AD Butters during those early years, when it wasn’t clear that you were going to have success on the court.

MK  5:02 

Tom Butters, to me, was one of the most influential people ever in my life. He was really smart. And he believed in me. He gave me an opportunity to coach at Duke. But with opportunities don’t always come belief. And if someone’s given an opportunity and you’re not doing that well, a lot of people jump ship. Tom Butters didn’t do that. In fact, he was more steadfast in saying “Look, you’re my guy [and] this is what we’re doing.” The ACC was so difficult during that time. We had a huge rebuilding job to do. And he just said, “[I’ll] stick with it with you.” And so did President Sanford.

PF  5:49 

And did you become a better coach along the way, or get better players, or a mixture of both?

MK  5:54 

Well, you become a better coach if you get better players [laughs]. The two go hand in hand. But you know what, you have to learn how to recruit at this level. I was a good recruiter at Army. And when you’re recruiting, you have to recruit a higher level of talent. And the intensity [in] the recruiting process heightens. And I found after my first year [that] we recruited too many [players], and I didn’t personalize it. So, I changed. And really, this is the way we recruited for 40 years. I didn’t recruit a lot. [For example] sharpshooting, like I want Johnny Dawkins, I want Mark Alarie, you know, I want David Henderson. And we went right away, and we had the top recruiting class in the country. But when they came in, they were only freshmen. So they still only won 11 games, because they were playing against Michael Jordan and Ralph Sampson and all these great teams. But the makings of [the] program and a team started with that first big recruiting class.

PF  7:04 

And what were you selling them at that time? So, everyone knows you at the end of your career. Just walking in, you have an immediate credibility. But in those early years, they might not have been able to spell your name [laughs]. And so what were you selling that they bought?

MK  7:20 

I never looked at recruiting as selling. I looked at recruiting as the development of a relationship. And I’m a big [proponent of] eye-to-eye contact. We’re going to tell each other the truth. And I always [told] every kid that I recruited, “I’m going to be one of three or four people, maybe in your life, that will always tell you the truth. And I want you to know that I’ll be there for you, and I want you to be there for me. I believe in you [and] I want you to believe in me.” And it resonated with the guys that we pinpointed. Because we pinpointed not just talent. We pinpointed good students. But a key thing was character. What kind of young man were they? I watched how they interacted with their teammates, got reports from their teachers, and I always looked at how they interacted with their parents. And not every kid has had a dad. But every kid had a mom. And I looked at that. So we recruited talent, with character. We did not recruit talented characters [laughs]. And as a result, good people who [were] talented [and] working together [with] common ground [and a] common cause — [they] got a chance. As our university grew, we attracted more and more [of those players]. We kind of became one — Duke and our basketball program — and we were able to attract outstanding young men the whole time.

PF  8:55 

Can you point to the moment when you said, “Okay, I know this is gonna work, I’m not gonna get fired, I know I’ve got a long time to develop this.”?

MK  9:05 

I never worried about being fired, maybe that’s just being young and being a little bit cocky. But I also knew that I had the backing. And I trusted Tom Butters and President Sanford. I think I’m a competitor, a really tough competitor. And so, I always believed we were going to win. It just took a while. And then once we started winning, I believed we could continue to win at that level. As long as you stayed hungry, and passionate about what you were doing, and you believed in the place where you were at. So I believe in Duke. That was never hard for me. You should want to come to Duke, not just to play for us and hopefully win big, but to be a part of this great university,

PF  10:03 

1990 was a pivotal year. That’s the year Duke hired me, by the way. That’s not what made it pivotal. But it was also an important year.

MK  10:12 

Hopefully, they recruited talent with character [laughs].

PF  10:15 

They got a character, I’ll say that. But it was also an important year for the program, and your coaching success. So, talk about that first Championship, and how you sustained the fire after already achieving that.

MK  10:34 

Well, our first National Championship occurred, really, after going to the Final Four four times — in ’86, ’88, ’89, and ’90. And in the ’90-’91 season, we made it to the Final Four and we were matched up against UNLV [University of Nevada – Las Vegas], who had beaten us for the National Championship by 30 points the year before. And it was one of the epic games in the history of the NCAA tournament, and we won. But it was the Semifinal. And getting them from the Semifinal to beat Kansas in the Final was an interesting psychological thing to do. But we were able to do that. I remember after we beat Vegas — it was a stunning upset, they had won 45 [games] in a row. And my first reaction was not to jump around, but was to tell everybody, “Settle down. We’ve got one more game to play.” And by that Monday night, for the National Championship — we were ready. And for me, sustaining the fire or whatever is never a problem. I’m a big “next page” guy. And especially if the last page was a championship of some sort, or, really going for the championship, why wouldn’t you want to do that again? Except, Peter, you have to pay the price to do that. And that price is preparation. And I’ve been a pretty good preparer my whole life.

PF  12:16 

I want to pull the thread on that. Because what is evident to folks who attend the game[s], and you know, watching [them] closely — it’s not just what you do with the players, or what the players do on the court. [It’s] all the rest of the apparatus around [such as] the managers [and] the assistant coaches, who have very clear roles and assignments. It’s a whole system. So talk about that, and how important that is for success?

MK  12:45 

Well, people use the words “culture” or “environment.” I like “culture.” We built a culture, and a culture is based on values. And if you have values, the values never change. How you teach, how you communicate, and what you’re communicating — those change. But the values never change. And we had seven [values]. Integrity. Respect — everyone’s important. Courage to say or do what needs to be said or done at that moment. Selfless service. Loyalty. Duty — do your job. And trust.

PF  13:28

Trust that other people are doing their job.

MK  13:30

Trust their word. Trust in a moment. And what happens then as you create common ground. And [it is] common ground for everybody. Your secretaries, your weight train[ers], the people who clean your offices, the floor, [at] Cameron. Everyone is important. That’s where respect comes in. And so when everyone’s important, and it is coordinated that way, they own it. And people who own something have a greater chance of defending it and doing it. But also when you come to work every day, you don’t work for [Duke Basketball]. You are Duke Basketball. I wanted every one [to feel that way]. They didn’t work for me, or work for Duke. They were [Duke], they owned it. We were able to have that in our infrastructure and our players learned it. But they didn’t just learn it from me, they learned from everybody in our organization.

PF  14:31 

And I know from friends that it’s almost as competitive to get one of those positions as it is to get playing positions.

MK  14:38 

Right. Take the managers. They have their own thing. We have anywhere from 12 to 15 of them. Mostly men, but some women. And they have their brotherhood or sisterhood, or whatever. Their mantra is, “The difficult is easy, the impossible takes a little bit longer.” My managers are terrific, they’ve gone on to do amazing things. In addition to a Duke degree, they learned the dignity of work. They learned how to be on a team. They learned that no job was too small. If I was running a business I’d take all my managers and, you know, we would kill.

PF  15:30 

[And] over 40 years of them some of them have achieved [a high level of] seniority in their careers.

MK  15:35 

Some of them are very rich, and have given money back to Duke or are on boards here [laughs]. When you have a program, it’s not just the players but it’s [also] the other students that are helping out. People who help with video and [other things]. To learn how to become part of a team, while you’re getting this world-class education — come on, that’s a great combination. And learning how to work is a talent. It’s a talent. And if you learn how to work together for a common purpose, it doesn’t get any better than that. They can incorporate that as they move on to what they’re going to do with our lives.

PF  16:31 

Well, it allows me to ask the dumbest question you’ve ever been asked [laughs]. I’ve watched so many games. The guy I like to watch the most is the manager who at halftime had to sprint across the court, dodging refs and everything. But I never knew what he was doing. So why did he have to run so quickly across court?

MK  16:51 

Well, the easy answer is he had to go to the bathroom [laughs]. No, he had to make sure that everything was — [that] our escape route was open, and the locker room was ready again. You know, one thing about our managers, if anything went wrong, you would see [motions them moving quickly]. No job too small, and we’re going to get it done. I love my managers.

PF  17:22 

Let’s go back now to the basketball itself. The game changed dramatically over the course of your career. Maybe several times, you might say. And certainly the enterprise around the game [and] the professionalism changed. But talk first about how the game changed, and how you as a coach had to evolve as the game changed?

MK  17:42 

If you want to stay with whatever you’re doing, you have to be agile as a leader and you have to keep adapting. Not just with communication. I had to adapt with communication my entire life because I kept getting older and they were the same age. But also you have to hold people accountable, and then you get good attitudes. The game changed because styles changed. Our game [was] impacted by the NBA. So during the late ’90s, kids didn’t have to go to college to go [pro]. So [for example] you recruit Kobe Bryant, but he’s never going to come, and how does that change how you’re going to recruit? Then, the [practice of] one-and-done or two-and-done or you can go [pro] early. How does that impact you? And so you wouldn’t have guys as long. How do you keep your culture going? The biggest thing that changed during the time [I coached] was the notoriety of the sport. And we rode a wave from the mid-’80s when ESPN came on. We hit the wave. And as TV grew, we grew. And we helped it grow, but they helped us grow. As a university, too. And it’s free advertising. But one of the main things is money. The salaries of coaches, the salaries of people doing everything. It escalated to where it is now with NIL — name, image, and likeness —  and the transfer portal. You have kids who are playing inter-collegiately who are making six figures [or] seven figures. And we’re adapting to that now. I don’t have to adapt to that. But if I was in it, I would try to figure out how we as a university [would] adapt to that. Because you have to keep adapting. If you want to stay in the game, adapt.

PF  19:55 

I’m going to follow up on that in a moment. But first, with the game evolving does it make it impossible to do inter-temporal comparisons? So, would the 1991 team be able to beat the 2015 team, or does that question even [make sense]?

MK  20:11 

It’s a common question in sport, like, “Is this guy better than that [guy]?” So eras are important because the competitive state of the game is different. In the early ’90s, you had older teams. Guys weren’t going [pro early]. So those teams were better than later teams, because they had to be better. We had guys who were lottery picks who were there for three years [or] four years. Instead of being there for one year. So probably the most talented team — I’m gonna get some of my teams mad at me — was the ’92 team. If we didn’t get injured — [point guard Bobby] Hurley broke his foot. We got a few injured. We had two losses. But we were number one the entire year. That team with [Christian] Laettner, Hurley, Grant Hill, you have three of the legendary players in the history of the game. Nothing against 2001, 2010, [and] 2015. But ’92 was pretty good. And you know what, though, the key thing is [that] you don’t have to be better than someone who used to be. You have to be better than who is. And so the teams that won were better than who [was around contemporaneously] at that point.

PF  21:37 

One of the things that pre-existed you but [that] you walked right into was that basketball mattered a lot in this area, this region.

MK  21:47

Oh, yeah.

PF  21:49

And I think folks who haven’t visited here can’t appreciate how close in everybody is. My next-door neighbor was a UNC fan, right?

MK  21:58

You didn’t move?

PF  21:59

You go to church [with them]. No, I enjoyed yelling out my windows [laughs]. That was a lot of fun. So you are living cheek-by-jowl with those [people]. And of course you joined at a time when there was a legendary coach.

MK  22:13

Sure, Dean Smith.

PF  22:15

Talk a little bit about how the area and the community affected your experience.

MK  22:18 

It affected me immensely. If I had to write a book, especially during that time, I would call it “Behind Enemy Lines.” Because we were the minority. Even though we’re in a national [and] international institution. And it was very difficult. My children suffered some in school. There were incidents. Oh, yeah. And even [with] teachers who know.

PF  22:53

No.

MK  22:54

Oh, yeah.

PF  22:55 

I mean, I can imagine kids on the playground, but…

MK  22:56 

No, no. My oldest daughter went to Northern High School. And we had beaten Carolina, and [then] we lost. And when she went to school, there were kids banging their lockers saying “Your dad’s this [insult]” and whatever. And my daughter Debbie was crying. She called home, and she said, “Dad, you have to pick me up.” You know, [telling me that] this happened. And I’m going to start crying a little bit here. I said, “You know, Deb, I’m going to come there, but I’m not going to pick you up. I’m gonna bring you a Duke sweatshirt.” And I get chills thinking about it, because you have to be tougher than your environment. It was not easy. It was not easy. And then when we started winning, it was easier because you beat us but we beat you too, and all that. Or we won a National Championship. But still, you never got the total support press-wise or whatever. People are always looking at, “Did he do something wrong?” and “How is he saying [things], how is he manipulating [things]?” It’s been an interesting thing, and where people actually hate you. You know, [you have negative experiences when] you’re getting gas or you’re going to the store.

PF  24:26 

Do you still get that now?

MK  24:29 

No, you know, because I’m not coaching. But even late in my career, I got that. To me though, as a competitor, if I walked into the arena and got booed — that was the biggest compliment they could give me. Because that’s what a competitor wants. [You think] “Alright, I got that. I’m cool with that.” But you have to have thick skin, and then you have to have players playing for you who are competitive. And God bless my family. My three daughters and my wife Mickey. We call ourselves the “Starting Five.” And we grew up with building this program, but also loving Duke. And also loving Durham, North Carolina. You know, we love it here and this is our home. So, you know, whatever you want to say, it’s where we live.

PF  25:32 

Well, I’ve heard you talk about this before, but I wonder if some of the strength that you just identified, you learned from your mom?

MK  25:41 

Oh yeah. And [my name is] Krzyzewski. My dad was in World War II as William Cross. He worked as a utility guy in the Willoughby Tower [in Chicago] and as an elevator operator as William Cross because there was ethnic discrimination during that time. He was worried about getting a job. They wouldn’t give it to a Krzyzewski, or someone with a vowel at the end of their name. So, you learn that. I didn’t even know that my parents went through all that until I went to West Point and got old enough to figure out, “Holy mackerel, what they did was unbelievable.” When I was fortunate to get into the Naismith [Basketball] Hall of Fame, in my induction speech — both my parents had passed — I said, and I started crying, “I wish my mom and dad were here tonight, to see a Krzyzewski going to the Hall of Fame.” Things just happen. Somehow I got the Duke job, [got] that background, [the experience of] how Duke was going to grow, how our program was going to grow. It just all worked out.

PF  27:03 

You mentioned your love for Durham, [and] you’ve given back to Durham. So talk a little bit about the Emily Krzyzewski Center and what its mission is.

MK  27:09 

My mom only went to eighth grade. [She was a] cleaning lady and she believed in education. And 19 years ago, we started the Emily Krzyzewski Center. We didn’t know the vision of it initially, but it became a center for learning, especially for low-income kids. And we now service over 2000 kids, 300 of them in programs after school. And 1700 to 1800 of them — we help every high school student in Durham, freshman on, go through the process of applying to colleges. We work with all the guidance counselors, and also [with] getting aid. It’s not an easy thing to fill out all those forms, especially when there are language and educational barriers. And so we have a staff of 25, and it’s wonderful. It’s just wonderful. We love this city. And Duke has loved this city. And how the two have come together and become one, it’s really one of the beautiful stories in our country — to have this great university, medical center, and city come together.

PF  28:23 

Now I wanted to ask you to reflect on some changes you’ve seen. Durham has changed dramatically in the 40-plus years you’ve been here. So talk a little bit about the changes you’ve seen in Durham, and then we’ll talk about the changes in Duke.

MK  28:40 

When we came here it was a tobacco town. And you know, Bull Durham. And it has changed. It’s changed because people don’t realize how smart and intelligent the city of Durham is. We have two universities here. North Carolina Central [University] and Duke. When I came from the North, I did not realize how many African American people my age were college graduates. So it had the makings of something really good. And then Duke helped a lot, and it became a city of medicine. And now it’s just this flourishing city. And the Durham Bulls helped a lot, in just the structure of building downtown Durham. And it continues to grow.

PF  29:40 

When they were recruiting me, they took me out to dinner in Chapel Hill [laughs]. Now you wouldn’t do that…

MK  29:46 

[Crosstalk] Well, you walk around and there’s restaurants.

PF  29:48 

The best restaurants are in Durham.

MK  29:50 

It’s been wonderful, and Duke has been so good about that with our satellite medical facilities all over. And obviously, to have a world-class medical center as part of your university is a godsend.

PF  30:09 

So, let’s talk about the changes you saw in Duke. When you came, Duke was a good regional school. Over the course of your career, we’ve grown to something more than that. So talk a little bit about what that was like to see, from your vantage point.

MK  30:27 

You know, I didn’t see it grow because I was immersed in trying to get our program going. And then I realized that it was growing. President Sanford, I thought he helped. He’s one of the great men in the history of Duke because I think he made us relevant to everybody. He made us not just a school, but part of a community. And him being a governor and all that helped. And then [former Duke President] Keith Brodie, for me, was the best man I’ve ever known at Duke. And from ’85 to ’93, we made this jump basketball-wise. He and I became great, great friends. He would show me how [with] us winning, how everything [else] went up. And so I became aware, through Dr. Brodie, of more of the impact of our program. And I started growing up in that regard. Instead of just staying in my own world, I got more in Duke’s world and [thinking about] how I might help the University in other ways. And then we were fortunate to have [former Duke President] Nan Keohane come for over a decade, and [former Duke President] Dick Brodhead, and now [Duke President] Vince Price. I have loved working for — working with — amazing presidents. Not good ones. Amazing ones. And with Dr. Brodie, God bless him. For me, he has a special place in my heart.

PF  32:08 

The person who you did not name but I think gets at least some of the credit is Dick Vitale. And the reason is, if you watched the games on TV — you weren’t watching them, right laughs]? But he would during the downtimes talk about how smart the kids were at Duke, how exciting Duke was. He was the biggest salesman for Duke. Free advertising.

MK  32:30 

And also, Peter, for college basketball [at large]. Dick and I are close, close friends, we were on the V Foundation board together for decades. His passion and his enthusiasm for the game — and then because we were so good, he was at so many of our games. And coming to Duke, he fell in love with Duke. Some of his grandkids go to Duke or have graduated from Duke. And we got him away from Notre Dame a little bit in doing that.

PF  33:08 

Let’s talk about the moment when we might have lost Coach K. So this is 2004 and 2005. You had the chance to coach at another level. That was obviously tempting to you. So talk a little bit about what was tempting, and then what made you decide to stay.

MK  33:28 

I think I was 57 at that time, and we had won a lot. And I started thinking, I probably have a decade or so [left in my career]. Is this what I still want to do? The Lakers job opened and Kobe Bryant, who we recruited, was there. I started looking at it, and then it became serious. And they came out and offered this amazing package. But I could not leave Duke.

PF  34:04

Why?

MK  34:05

I love Duke. And we were making good money, not what they were gonna [offer]. But it wasn’t just the lifestyle. How many people can do what they love, in the place that they love? You know, I don’t know. That’s pretty damn good. And my family, we could not give it up. A real quick story about Tom Butters during that time. So, my first salary here at Duke was 40 thousand dollars in 1980. Now it [was] 2005, 25 years later, and the Lakers initially offered 40 million [dollars] for five years. So I called Tom Butters. And I said, “Tom, 40,000 [versus] 40 million [dollars]. What do you think?” And he had a great sense of humor. He said, “I think you should give me a 10% finder’s fee.” So I said, “You son of a God, I’m gonna send you a check for four thousand dollars, and thank you.” But that’s the kind of relationship we have. And you know what, that’s really the kind of relationships that people at Duke have. I think everyone wants to work together really well, and have each other’s back.

PF  35:33 

Now in lieu of going to the NBA you added a different dimension to your career, which actually neatly parallels Duke’s internationalization. You joined USA Basketball. Talk a little bit about that as you became more on the international stage — not the national, but international stage — and were representing Duke in those settings.

MK  35:57 

Just a couple of months after I turned down the Laker[s] job, Jerry Colangelo who ran USA Basketball at that time said that he had a meeting with a bunch of former Olympians and he offered that I would become the first national coach. So, a four year period. And it was an honor. You don’t get paid for it, but you get paid in so many ways.

PF  33:25

I didn’t realize that you did not get paid to be the coach.

MK  36:26

No, no. And the players don’t get paid either. But that’s fine. What you learn, and what happens, is priceless. And because we built a culture there — Jerry, myself and the players — when we won the Beijing Olympics in 2008, he asked me to be that [USA] coach again. And we won in Istanbul in the World Championships in 2010 [and] London for the Olympics in 2012. And he said, “I’d like for you to do it one more time.” And we were able to win in Madrid in 2014 and Rio in 2016. Those 11 years helped me immensely. I think it helped our school, too, especially in different parts – in Asia, definitely, where they follow the NBA religiously. They do. They have more NBA fans in China than anywhere in the world. And when we were there, and then all of a sudden I’m [also the] Duke coach and all these things — you get noticed. And you get noticed at this high level because of the company you’re keeping. and that company is pretty good, and that company won.

PF  37:44 

And initially, Duke probably did not have as recognized a name [internationally] as some other schools, Harvard or what have you. And so did you go to places and they would say, well, “Who’s Duke? What’s Duke?”

MK  37:59 

You would actually see people with Duke stuff on [laughs]. That made me feel very, very proud. It shows that we talked about earlier — the marketing ability of sport, especially sport that’s done the way the university would want that sport to be done. So this trajectory with my career and Duke University, it’s kind of crazy, really, how it all worked out. But it worked because we had really good guys, and they won, and I had this opportunity to coach the US team.

PF  38:45 

So you didn’t have them for three, four years like you might hope with a college player. You had them for three, four months? Maybe [for] a week?

MK  38:58

Less than that.

PF  38:59

So how could you build [the] team when so much of what you did involved a lot more [time for development]?

MK  39:03 

Well, first of all, you’re dealing with men who are very accomplished and they’re very talented. And the key thing is to get them all working as one. So you go through, building a culture building, having standards, common ground. I would always tell them, “You’re not playing for the United States.” And they’d look at me like I was nuts. And I’d say, “You are United States basketball.” And here are the reasons why you are United States basketball. We would always meet — and I call it the development of standards or common ground — and figure out how we were going to live for that period of time. And then we would hold each other accountable during that time. They loved it. You know, what I found my whole career was that the outstanding players want to be coached. They want to be coached and they want to be held accountable. A lot of people do not know how to coach talent — high-level talent — and definitely they don’t know how to hold them accountable. Which [is] basically, just make it simple. But have a relationship with them where they would want to do that. And we had really good, close teams. And those guys loved it. I loved it. And we were able to win. But we were also respected. We wanted to win the gold medals. But we wanted to win the respect of the world and our own country. And I feel very, very good about the fact that we — those guys — were able to do that.

PF  40:49 

I’ve heard you say this before — one of the pivotal moments in I think your first Olympic team was when you had them meet up with the veterans? Or maybe they were active duty folks.

MK  41:04

Yeah, active duty.

PF  40:05

So, that brings another thread to your long career — your military service. You’ve remained close to the Army, and to the military more generally, ever since. So, talk about that moment with the Olympics. And then we’ll go back and talk about the military.

MK  41:17 

Well, the greatest team in the world is our military. The greatest team in the world is our military. And so to have our US team associated with the greatest team — if we want to be the greatest basketball team — seems pretty simple to understand. But how do you connect them? We had Wounded Warriors speak to them. The Wounded Warriors wanted to serve again, no excuses. My guys are crying. We would go to military installations. We would do a lot of things with the military. So, Peter, it’s important to hear and see. But you have to learn how to feel. And we try to give them feel moments, not just hear and see. And when you feel it, it goes here [gestures]. And if it goes here, come on, you got a chance. Our guys loved representing our country, and they loved their association with the military. I stay in touch with our military. I either give talks [or] Zoom. I still, with my alma mater, go up once a year — they have an award up there named after me — and we talk to the Corps Cadets. That’ll always be a part of me. I cannot believe how lucky I was to graduate from — I call it the best leadership school in the world. And that’s the United States Military Academy.

PF  42:46 

I tell senior leaders at Duke that one of our advantages at Duke is our proximity to military bases for Fort Liberty, Seymour Johnson [Air Force Base], etc. [Crosstalk] Schools we compare to are further away, and will never be closer to the military. This is an advantage Duke has, and increasingly I’ve seen Duke has taken advantage of this.

MK  43:12 

And we have ROTC programs that have produced outstanding officers.

PF  43:19 

You have a leadership program at [Duke’s] Fuqua [School of Business]. I wanted you to talk a little bit about that.

MK  43:24 

I’ve been associated with Fuqua for over two decades, so I’m now a professor there. Just lecturing.

PF  43:31 

That’s the highest title. No, professor is the highest title.

MK  43:37 

[Laughs] I’ll take that as a good title. No, it’s a great title. But yeah, we have leadership summits. [It’s called] the Fuqua/Coach K Leadership Summit, and a number of top military people in our country come to it. About 20 years ago now Doug Breeden was the dean, and we didn’t have a leadership component at Fuqua, and we raised a lot of money. And we started COLE, the Center for Organizational Leadership and Ethics. And now it’s like the soul of Fuqua. They have COLE fellows. I’m very proud. I always felt that having a basketball program here, you should not be siloed. So we got involved with Fuqua, the [Duke University] Medical Center, and a bunch of people, to make sure that — the worst thing for a free university is to be siloed. There are too many great people, great teams, and they need to interact so that the total team flourishes.

PF  44:46 

I was watching TV during the tournament [and] I watched you market two things. I watched you market the car insurance — won’t ask you about that. But the one that really resonated with me was the recruiting pitch. So talk a little bit about that.

MK  45:03 

Yeah, we’ve done some spots. Marty Dempsey, the former Chairman of the Joint Chiefs, [crosstalk] and Duke graduate student, we’ve done them in other years. This year, I had an opportunity to do this. I saw the script and the footage and I told them, “This one is going to be the best one ever.” And so we spent a few hours doing voiceover in different ways. I said, “We got to make sure this is going to knock it out of the park.” And hopefully it’s helped our military in recruiting.

PF  45:41 

Well, the army says they’re going to meet their [recruiting] numbers this year, are you going to claim credit for that?

MK  45:47 

No, there’s usually some other reasons why — again, you’re the marketing tool. I think we’ll always realize the magnitude of [Duke’s] sports programs. All the sports, we have 27 or something like that. They all have the ability to touch others, while they’re touching the young men and women who are on those teams. They should always be one of the parts of the basic fabric of the University, and be treated as such. You know, when I went to West Point — and they still do it today — they believe that every Cadet was an athlete. In other words, that being an athlete was part of the educational process. Because what you learned on the field, on the court, on the diamond — those are lessons that can be incorporated with what you’re learning in the classroom.

PF  46:54 

But not every athlete can play on the team. I know this, because I’ve told you, I have four years of college eligibility left, you’ve never taken me up on that [laughs].

MK  47:02 

You know what, but we have great clubs, and inter-murals. And it’s not just athletics, but there are teams here in theater, and all different aspects of the university. And that’s why I always think of Duke as — all the students here don’t just go to school here. They live here. They become part of different communities, and these clubs, and activities, and sports, and whatever. That gets them even closer to the University. And of course, they learn a lot from other people here. This school is a people school. Whenever I recruited, and [we discussed majors] I said, “You know what? You’re going to major in people. The best thing you’re going to learn at Duke is people.” And so throw yourself completely in.

PF  48:06 

That allows me to ask about another rite of passage that most Duke undergraduates who come here want to do at least once, and some do more than once, is camping out in Krzyzewskiville [outside Cameron Indoor Stadium]. And it’s crazy. I have mixed views about that.

MK  48:21 

No, no. It’s, uh.. you know, when it first started, that was like a rock concert going on out there. It was crazy. But it’s become this village, this life center or whatever, for about seven weeks. And it’s almost like a rite of passage to do it at least once. I love it. And my daughter Debbie is an Assistant Athletic Director [and] she works closely [there] because they have line monitors…

PF  48:59 

It’s an elaborate thing.

MK  49:02 

They have their own government. And they make friends that they would not normally meet and make. And then they obviously support our team magnificently.

PF  49:19 

Well, this allows me now to ask about something you referenced at the very beginning, which was the changes around the way college athletics [functions]. The NIL [rule], which extends well beyond basketball and football, has made some people wonder if the golden years of college athletics [are] in the past. That you experienced the best of the years and now it’s going to feel different. It’s a business, it just doesn’t feel the same. So talk a little bit about that.

MK  49:49 

And also the organization of the NCAA, which has not done a really good job over the last decade, especially. And where conferences are. What will be the future of Duke University? Will there always be an ACC? You know, what will happen. We’re in that midst of change. And so it’s incumbent on our leadership to make sure they keep abreast with what is happening, and position our university in a way where we can continue to be at the highest level. Again, you’re adapting. It’s a change. And so much of it is because of college football, and because of TV. And so, okay. Is it worth figuring out? You’re damn right, it’s worth figuring it out. And if I can be a part of helping to figure that out, I’d love to be a part of it.

PF  50:48 

You’ve mentioned a number of leaders who you thought had a key impact on Duke, but also, of course, on you. Are there any others, and to include [those] from the further past before you got here. [People who] you say, “That’s a key figure in the evolution of Duke.”

MK  51:06 

Well, I think what President Stanford did. He organized — I call it the Rat Pack — with [Eugene] Gene McDonald, who I think is one of the great unsung heroes of Duke University, and what he did with the money from Duke. And Duke Corp., how he started everything. Chuck Huestis, [Kenneth] Ken Pye, Tom Butters. That group of guys. It wasn’t just academics. They were trying to figure out how to get it all going. And it was brilliant to have Dr. Brodie take over, because he was in the Medical Center. And so, now you have that moving, but how do we incorporate this unbelievable Medical Center into what we’re doing? And I think during that period — the ’80s — there are probably a lot of unsung heroes. But Ken Pye was one of the [most] brilliant people ever here at Duke. But President Sanford got them all together to figure this out. And then Dr. Brodie I thought did a great job of just keeping it going. And for me, the guy who did the most for me, was Tom Butters. And he was a visionary. You know, Keith Brodie did something that was never done in intercollegiate athletics. He made an Athletic Director a Vice President. And it was a key move, because it meant that when the leadership of the school would meet, athletics was represented. And now everybody does it. So that’s what I’m saying. There were some unbelievably big moves during that time. And not only did he bring in [the] Athletic Director, but he brought Tom Butters. And I think that decade — again, that was my first decade here — [but] I just was around superior people who had great, great vision. And it’s helped create vision for others for our university.

PF  53:28 

Over the course of your time at Duke, there were some shocks, or developments that were positive. There were some negative ones, some hard ones. [The Duke] lacrosse [case], the great recession, the [COVID] pandemic. Which of those, or others that might have been even more impactful that I didn’t mention, was the hardest for you to adjust to. [Or] that you found had the biggest impact on you?

MK  53:50

Personally, the pandemic because wow. You know, [I’m] a hands-on guy. That was the worst year of my coaching career.

PF  54:02 

Worse than the year you hurt your back?

MK  54:06 

Yeah, everything. Because I couldn’t even coach until October. Guys were living in hotels,  at the Washington Duke [Inn].

PF  54:18 

And no one knew when the end was going to be.

MK  54:21 

I think one of the tragic things was the lacrosse [case]. People call it a scandal. It was a mistake, you know, in how everything was handled. And I think we learned a lot as a University. And I think one of the things we hopefully would learn, and keep that lesson alive, is not to rush to judgment. And make sure that we’re there. But no, for the most part Duke has been a pretty good ride. It’s been a really good ride [laughs]. One of the things I love about Duke is its uniqueness. We have not tried to be like anybody. And so we’re always becoming who we are. If you’re trying to be like somebody, you forget about who you are, like, “I’m supposed to be doing that?” And I hope we always maintain that. I think we’re the best university in the world. But I also think we’re the most unique. And I’ve loved that. I’ve absolutely loved that about Duke.

PF  55:44 

You may have already answered this, but this is going to be my last question. What do you hope for Duke? If you and I were going to be meeting again, 25 years from now, what do you hope Duke will look like?

MK  55:58 

The ability, one, to continue to be unique. And being unique, everything can’t be all planned out. You have to do some things by feel. I feel we can do this. I feel like we can be an integral part of climate change. I feel like we could have the best cardiology department in the world. We have so much talent here. And not just to feel sports-wise or whatever, but to listen to the talent we have in all these departments and ask them, “What do you think? How do you feel?” Feel their passion and commitment, and then, you know, go for it. Go for it. Let’s keep going for it. And not just holding a lead. If we hold the lead, someone’s gonna beat us.

PF  57:07

No four corners offense.

MK  57:09

No delay of games. That’s not the kind of school we are.

PF  57:14 

Well, Duke is the way it is because we had great people over the years do exactly what you’re talking about. And few people will have done more than you have done over the last 40 years. And for that as a Dukie, and Duke employee, I thank you. And I look forward to exploring how this is going to go for the next 25 years.

MK  57:32 

Alright, thanks Peter. Appreciate it. Thank you.