Centennial Oral Histories:
Charlie Lucas

Luke Powery  0:19  

I’m Luke [A.] Powery, and I’m here with Charlie Lucas [Charles C. Lucas III] for the Duke Centennial Oral Histories Program. This is such a great privilege for me to be with one of the Duke family members. And what I wanted to begin this conversation with is [that] I know that Mary Duke Biddle Trent Semans [was] your grandmother. She was the granddaughter of Benjamin Duke. Can you say a little bit about the family, the family tree, [and] the history of the family? Maybe even beginning with Washington Duke, or going back further than that?

Charles Lucas  1:03  

Sure. Let me just say it’s a privilege to be able to sit here with my friend Luke Powery. I’m happy to be here. So yes, it’s an interesting story. It’s a uniquely American story. Washington Duke was conscripted into the Confederate Army at age 45 — so in 1865. He was then very quickly caught and was a prisoner of war. And then when the war ended several months later he was released in New Bern, North Carolina, and he walked home 130 miles to collect his children, who had been kept by relatives, and to come back to his farm, which was in disrepair. But he found some dried tobacco in one of his barns — there’s a famous photograph of him standing in front of this barn — and they took that tobacco and they chopped it up and processed it, put it in a little muslin bags, [and ] sold it off the back of a mule-drawn wagon in and around Durham. And the rest, as they say, is history. The business — W. Duke, Sons and Company — grew very quickly. By 1870, they had built a factory in the town of Durham, and [Duke’s] 14-year-old son managed that factory. All three of the children from his second wife were involved in the business — Ben, Buck, and Mary. And then the business grew very, very quickly. By 1880, James B. Duke [Buck Duke] had moved to New York, and the Dukes were one of the largest smoking tobacco manufacturers in the country. 

But then they did something remarkable, and they made a very risky investment in 1884 in the Bonsack cigarette machine. And that began the mass production of cigarettes. And by 1889, they were the largest cigarette manufacturer in the country. In 1890, James B. Duke and his brother basically forced the other cigarette manufacturers in the United States to consolidate and formed the American Tobacco Company. And the American Tobacco Company then controlled roughly 90% of the US domestic tobacco market. From there, they diversif[ied] into other businesses. I’m cutting it short a little bit [laughs]. Ultimately, the tobacco company as a monopoly is broken up by the US government, and the Dukes really focus their capital and their energy on hydroelectric power. The Southern Power Company is formed in 1905. [Later it changed] its name to Duke Power.

And all of that economic success allowed them to be philanthropic, beginning in the late 1880s or so. In 1890, Washington Duke facilitated the move of this small, fledgling, Methodist college from Randolph County to Durham. He paid for the move, provided a small endowment. And then when Trinity College had moved, his son Ben took over essentially [what was] that role and became the university’s — the college at that point — largest benefactor and long serving trustee. And it was Ben Duke who really directed the family’s philanthropic efforts that ultimately culminate[d] in his brother forming the Duke Endowment in 1924. From there, it was really the Duke women — after Ben Duke died in 1929 — that carried the flag forward. And ultimately that was my great-grandmother, and then my grandmother Mary Duke Biddle Trent Semans, and then her children, and ultimately her grandchildren. And I’m just lucky to be one of those.

LP  5:08  

Well, we’re lucky to know you.

CL  5:11  

So that’s a long, drawn-out story — but actually cut a little short. But I think it gives you some context as to how we arrived where we are today.

LP  5:21  

Most definitely. Thank you. Thinking about being a member of this influential family, obviously, we’re at [Duke] University, [thinking about] the endowment — how has that shaped your life? What has it meant to you to be a part of this amazing family that has done so much good in the world?

CL  5:46  

Well, I feel humbled and honored and blessed. Because I was born [laughs] and I was lucky enough to be the great-great-grandson of Benjamin Duke, the great-great-great-grandson of Washington Duke. And then, of course, the grandson of my grandmother. I didn’t have anything to do with it [laughs]. But it certainly means an incredible amount. A great deal. The legacy of the family is unique. Duke University is, of course, unique in its incredible ascent over the last century and the place that it holds today in higher education internationally. It’s remarkable how quickly that happened. But the family’s philanthropic legacy across the two Carolinas, and beyond, and through other family foundations — as I said, it’s humbling. It’s challenging, because they’re big shoes to fill. But we’re all very, very blessed to be a part of it. And our ancestors set the bar very high. So we have things to live up to. And we all try to do that.

LP  7:27  

I know the family has still to this day continued deep ties with the University, which in many ways, I think is unique and distinct. Why do you think that connection is still present?

CL  7:44  

It’s interesting that you mention this because it was in a conversation I had with Dick [Richard H.] Brodhead early on, and Dick actually said this a couple of times publicly. It’s totally unique in American higher education that a founding family still has such close ties to the institution that it helped found. It’s almost unheard of. And I think the reason is that there was such passion about this school from the very beginning that it carried over generation after generation after generation. I don’t know fully how to explain it, other than to say that when a member of your family is passionate about something — and especially when you’re a child who can be influenced by those people — that passion tends to flow. And Washington Duke was passionate enough about it to help it move to Durham and to provide financial stability. Ben Duke was totally passionate about it. And he and his father helped drive the college to co-education early on in its history. He believed that this institution could be a force of good in the world. And then of course his daughter, Mary Duke Biddle, became a benefactor of the school. But ultimately my grandmother — Mary Duke Biddle Trent Semans — she was totally passionate about Duke University. And that passion flowed through to her children and her grandchildren. 

Still to this day, we believe that we should help perpetuate the vision of the family at Duke University. It is unique, though. It’s unique, and we’re grateful to the Duke administration for allowing us to continue to have that relationship. Because frankly in higher education many, many universities would probably say, “Ah, we don’t really, we don’t need the family.” Duke has been very different. Duke has embraced the family. And of course, my grandmother was a force of nature [laughs]. And she made sure that the family was always present. But it’s been, I think, a uniquely beneficial relationship for the University, and certainly for the family. We take great pride in it.

LP  10:50  

I’m definitely going to ask you about your grandmother in a little while [laughs], and I wish I could have met her. 

CL  10:59 

I wish you could have known her.

LP  11:00

She passed away the same year I arrived. 

CL  11:03

I remember, I remember.

LP  11:04

But I wanted to ask you this. This is obviously the centennial. And why is this year especially significant for the University, for the Duke Endowment, and for the Duke Family?

CL  11:18  

Well, it only comes around once [laughs]. There’s something in the human psyche where you want to celebrate milestones, right? I think that this is a significant milestone for this University. And I mentioned a couple minutes ago, I don’t think anyone would have envisioned 100 years ago where Duke would be today. And Duke today — it’s just a remarkable institution. I mean, it is a leader in every sense of the word in higher education across the globe. It’s really amazing. It has taken a seat at the table with the great universities of the world. So, I think it’s an amazing milestone to celebrate for the University, because it only took us 100 years. There are a lot of other schools that have hundreds of years of a head start [laughs], and we’re pretty close. 

For the Duke Endowment, it’s similar but a little different. I think that Mr. Duke fully envisioned that the Duke Endowment would be here 100 years from now. I think he expected it to be perpetual, and that it’ll be here another 100 years from now. And I think he would be excited, but not surprised, at the influence that the Endowment has had in the last 100 years. The influence over Duke University, of course — not over, the influence it has had — on Duke University. But also, I think he would be pleased and excited about the work that the Endowment has done over the Carolinas over the past 100 years. And I think the important thing about celebrating 100 years for the Duke Endowment is that North and South Carolina would look very different today had it not been for the Duke Endowment’s investment over the last 100 years. I mean, North and South Carolina are prosperous states today. They were very poor, very poor, 100 years ago. And the Duke Endowment helped build hospitals to create access to health care. It supported orphanages and families when there was very little support for that. It helped the church, of course, particularly small rural churches that could barely rub two nickels together. And then, finally, the four schools that it supports. And [for] each of those four schools, the Duke Endowment has forever been the largest benefactor of those four schools, since its inception, and remains so today. Those four schools would be different today, certainly, had it not been for the Endowment. 

And then for the family, it’s a special time to see these two institutions that have had such influence — certainly on the Carolinas, but [also] beyond — to see these two institutions that have survived, and thrived, and really helped people over the last 100 years. It is a great legacy that we have inherited, those of us that are living today. We’ve inherited this legacy, and we’re blessed, and it is time to celebrate it. And to celebrate those that help do the work.

LP  15:15  

It is a great time of celebration. One key figure, obviously, [is] Mr. James B. Duke. Thinking about the [James B. Duke] Indenture of Trust and what the document has done, and the impact of Mr. Duke’s vision and generosity — can you speak a little bit about this Indenture, for those that may not understand the significance?

CL  15:41  

Well, I encourage everybody to read it. Everyone should read it [laughs]. It takes about 45 minutes. So, it’s a unique document. It’s very lawyerly, in some places. And then in the seventh division of the Indenture, Mr. Duke really uses his own words to describe what he wanted the Endowment to achieve. Let me first say that the trust Indenture is actually the institutionalization of the family’s philanthropy going back 30 years before the Duke Endowment was formed. So, in the 1890s Ben Duke, as I mentioned earlier, really led the family’s philanthropy. And Ben Duke was the one that established the pattern of giving to education, hospitals and health care, orphanages and families, and the church. And we have — I think there’s some in the Duke Archives, we certainly have it at the Duke Endowment — these ledgers of Ben Duke’s gifts [for] any one year. It’s fascinating. He would give to dozens and dozens of colleges across the South and the country. Dozens of hospitals. Obviously, dozens of churches. Really interesting to look at that. But it was Ben Duke that established the pattern. 

And then Ben Duke — who was his brother’s closest advisor, they were very, very close — over the course of roughly 20 plus years helped shape his brother’s vision for what his philanthropy should look like. So, James B. Duke’s first significant gift to Trinity College was in 1905 or so. And it was for the library. And it was Ben Duke who convinced his brother to do it. And then ultimately William Preston Few, who was President of Trinity College beginning in 1910; William Perkins, Mr. Duke’s lawyer; and George Allen, his closest business adviser; those four men really helped shape the basis of the trust Indenture. So, it took over a decade to sort of put this together. Mr. Perkins kept a copy of it in the top drawer of his desk, literally for over a decade, and would pull it out whenever Mr. Duke wanted to tweak it or make adjustments. 

Finally, beginning in the early 1920s, it was getting close. And Dr. Few, in particular, wanted to influence how Duke University might ultimately be the major beneficiary in the Indenture. So, they began actually buying some land in the early 20s, before the Indenture was signed, so that when the Indenture was signed on December 11, 1924, much of the land had already been assembled. Or at least the Dukes had assembled the land, the University didn’t have it yet. And they knew that the trust Indenture said that if Trinity College decide[d] to change its name to Duke University, then they get a $6 million gift, and the Duke Endowment will build the campus and the like. It took them two weeks [laughs]. 

But the trust Indenture — it’s an amazing document, it’s a living document. It’s very prescriptive in terms of what Mr. Duke wanted to do, but it’s flexible enough to allow for adjustment as times change. So, an example. Mr. Duke wanted to build hospitals. Because he believed that hospitals created access to care, particularly in rural communities, but [also because] hospitals were also economic drivers of their communities. They are today. And he recognized that and knew that if he invested in hospitals that it would help the economic well-being of the community, as well. But ultimately, we had built all the hospitals that we needed to build. And so, by the time we get to the late 1990s, the emphasis of the Endowment changed. And it started to focus more on health care in a holistic way. And so today we really don’t provide much capital. We don’t make many capital investments in hospitals or health care facilities. But we do fund health care programs across the two Carolinas, primarily to improve the health of all Carolinians. And it’s a subtle shift. But it still adheres to Mr. Duke’s original vision of investing in health care to improve the health of the people in the Carolinas. That’s just an example. 

But the document is what we live by. We’re very careful to adhere to Mr. Duke’s wishes, because legally we’re bound to. At the same time, he gave us trustees uncontrolled discretion to do what they need to do, in order to fulfill his wishes. So, it’s a very interesting document. As an additional note — we’re required as a board to read the Indenture aloud to each other once a year. We’re required to do it. It’s in the document, so legally we’re bound to do it. So, this past December, we read the Indenture to the assembled Duke Endowment Trustees. And we also included the Duke University Trustees. And it was a really magical moment, because most of the Duke University Trustees had never read the Indenture. Had certainly never heard it read [laughs]. And it was magical. It was a binding moment between our two boards that we haven’t had in a very long time. And it was really special.

LP  22:51  

Tell me about that image, which, I was in the room [laughs].

CL  22:57  

It was very special.

LP  22:58  

But to have both [groups of] trustees together reading that document — can you say something about the relationship between the Duke Endowment and Duke University, and how the Duke Endowment helps the University fulfill its mission and the vision of Mr. Duke?

CL  23:20  

It’s a unique relationship. So, if you go back to the beginning, Mr. Duke had a vision that the Duke Endowment would sit here [gestures to a “top” position]. The trustees of the Duke Endowment would be directors of the Power Company, because the Duke Endowment was the largest shareholder of the Power Company. And the Duke Endowment Trustees would also be trustees of the University, because the Duke Endowment was the largest funder of the university. So his vision was that the Duke Endowment would sit here [gestures], and everything else would be under that. Well, the IRS didn’t like that very much. The government didn’t like it [laughs]. So that vision sort of — it was adjusted pretty quickly after Mr. Duke’s death. I’d say late 1930s [inaudible]. But trustees of the Duke Endowment remained directors of the Power Company for a very long time. And trustees of the Endowment also remained trustees of the University for a very long time. In fact, my grandmother, I think, was the last Duke Endowment Trustee to also be a Trustee of the University. Which I think was totally appropriate, by the way [laughs]. 

So in the early days, of course, the Duke Endowment’s gift built East and West Campus from scratch. And East Campus — the Georgian [architectural style] East Campus that we know today — was built at the same time that the Gothic West Campus was built. Most of the buildings on East Campus at the time were either torn down or weren’t kept. West and East Duke, and I think a couple of others along Buchanan maybe, are original. So the two campuses are built. The Endowment also provides operational support to Duke University. And in the 1930s, in particular, and in the 1960s, the Duke Endowment’s financial support actually exceeded tuition revenue. I mean, the Duke Endowment was critical to the financial stability and survival of Duke University, on numerous occasions. Duke University ultimately transforms; however, we know [laughs] and happily [around] the 1970s and 1980s. And of course, we are where we are today. 

And so today the role of the Endowment is really quite different. Today the Endowment is able to support initiatives at the University that are important to the President and the Provost. And [they] are things, maybe, that would be on a wish list, that they might not otherwise be able to fund or might not otherwise be able to do at the moment. As an example, recent grants — very recent grants. The new gateway for the Duke Gardens, which is about to be constructed — which is going to be magnificent, by the way, but it took a long time to come together. And it was the Duke Endowment’s initial gift, and their final gift, that enabled them to be able to pull the money together to make that happen. The renovation of Lilly Library is another example where — pre-COVID I think everything was on track. COVID stops everything and creates a funding shortfall, the Duke Endowment is able to come back in with a second gift. And then the Lilly family came in with a gift. And now [the] Lilly [renovation] is going to happen, when it could have been delayed by five to seven years. Which by the way would have been terrible, because Lilly needs a renovation [laughs]. So today it’s a little different, and we’re able to devote more resources to help the University become even better. 

CL  29:14  

So some of the things that we can do today to make the University even greater are investments in faculty support and in financial aid. Where Duke struggles to match some of its peers — older peers — is on the Endowment side, obviously. And so, [examples are] endowment for scholarships and financial aid [and] endowment for endowed professorships where they can effectively recruit faculty in the market against their, as I said, older peers. Our support has been able to supplement what the University can do there and make it more competitive in a highly competitive marketplace against their Ivy League peers and their non-Ivy peers.

LP  30:12  

Now as the current Chair of the Endowment, and thinking about the Endowment because it’s the Endowment’s Centennial as well — looking to the second century, what would you say are some particular goals that the Endowment has for the next century?

CL  30:35  

When I look at the Duke Endowment, one of the most important things to me is that we continue to adhere closely to Mr. Duke’s vision. We take donor intent very seriously. And I think where some of our peer foundations have perhaps gone astray over the years is when they have lost track of what their donor may have intended. In our case, it’s easy to honor donor intent, because we have a legal document that forces our hand. All that was by design, and [inaudible]. So, I would want us to continue to follow Mr. Duke’s wishes really closely. That said, I know [and] my fellow trustees know that in healthcare in particular our investments on an annual basis — call them $50 million [currently] — [are] a drop in the bucket in terms of the total healthcare spend in North and South Carolina. So how can we better utilize those resources to have as large an impact as possible on healthcare in the Carolinas? 

So, we’re following a strategy in which we are trying to be an accelerating partner. [That] is what we’re calling ourselves. Where we want to direct our resources to innovation in healthcare, to improve healthcare processes, to improve the delivery of healthcare, to improve access to the extent we can. But [as] an accelerating partner where you take innovation, and you can scale it quickly to improve the delivery of healthcare services. That’s just an example. I want us to be true to Mr. Duke and his brother’s vision, frankly. [To be true to] the Duke family’s philanthropy. I want us to continue to support our schools in a way [that makes] all four of our schools better — Duke [University], Davidson [College], Furman [University], and Johnson C. Smith [University]. I want us to be innovators in healthcare and try to maximize the effectiveness of our resources. And the same thing goes [for] our Child & Family Well-Being division area, as well. The big player in that area is the government, of course. We have to figure out how to be a partner with the government in order to maximize the use of our resources. It sounds tactical but it’s actually strategic ultimately in how we make our resources go further and have the greatest impact across the two Carolinas. That’s what Mr. Duke would have wanted.

LP  33:48  

Now in terms of Mr. Duke, and where the University is today. What do you — from your perspective of course, he’s not here — but what would he think about the University today if he saw what Duke is? 

CL  34:09  

James B. Duke was a builder. He loved building things [and] creating things. In fact, one of his biographies was called Master Builder. He loved the idea of building this great University. He saw the original plans for West Campus before he died. He selected the architect. He knew what was going to happen before he died unexpectedly 10 months after he signed the trust Indenture in October of 1925. I mentioned this when we announced our Centennial Gift to Duke University last December. I think he would be pleased and I think he would be excited about where Duke University is today. He might even be amazed at the incredible growth and progress that it has made in the world of higher education. But I don’t think he would be surprised, right? Because he generally got his way [laughs]. And he was a visionary. He was a huge global thinker. When you think about the businesses that he built — the American Tobacco Company [and] the British American Tobacco Company — these were global enterprises. He invested in the early large hydroelectric power projects in Canada. He was one of the earliest investors, and a major investor, in Alcoa and in Amerada Hess. You know, large, big, global, industrial enterprises. 

He thought in really big terms, so I don’t think he’d be surprised at the scope of the University today [but] I don’t think he would want us to rest on our laurels. What he would want is for us to keep going. He wanted to dominate his businesses. I think he would want Duke University to do the same. In the Seventh division of the Indenture, he says, and I’m paraphrasing, “I want Duke University to take a real place of leadership in the educational world.” Duke has done that. And I think has succeeded beyond the expectations of Mr. Duke’s associates, and even the family. But he would want us to keep going. He would want us to never stop. And I think of the oft-quoted phrase that Terry Sanford used — outrageous ambitions. He had outrageous ambitions for this institution. And I think he would want us to continue with that type of attitude. You know, let’s go. Let’s be great. Let’s be the greatest that we can be. That’s what he would want. 

LP  37:59  

Thinking of that “let’s go” attitude, I have to turn to your grandmother, Mary Duke Biddle Trent Semans. I never met her but [she was] a luminary and [is] a heavy presence in my mind. Various people around Duke still talk about her and her influence and who she was as a person. And [thinking] obviously [of] James B. Duke, Benjamin Duke, Washington Duke, family members [such as] her, and to this day — that legacy of giving. That generous spirit and heart is so present. How do you think about your grandmother? Could you speak a little bit about her, who she was and what she embodied? [And] how do you continue her legacy and that of your other ancestors? 

CL  38:54  

She was a force of nature. I wish you had known her. She was a force of nature. My grandmother was a force of good in the world. And she really always wanted to do the right thing. And she would go to extra lengths to ensure that she did. Or that her children or her grandchildren did the right thing. She was passionate. She was energetic. She was a little like the Energizer Bunny. I mean, she never stopped. She used her time wisely. She would write letters, and she wrote her own speeches out in longhand. So she would write while she was in the car, she would write at the breakfast room table. She was always busy. But when she spoke to you, there was nobody else that she was speaking to. She was able to focus on the person or the group that she was speaking to, and it was as if it was only the two of you. And that’s a gift that she had. But it went to her soul, because she believed that she needed to connect with whoever she was with. 

Living into her legacy is something that we all struggle with, frankly, every day. Because she was this larger-than-life persona. And so I don’t pretend to be able to do that. She was chairman of the Duke Endowment for 19 years. And the Duke Endowment grew significantly over the course of her chairmanship, it evolved over the course of her chairmanship, she was the first woman chairman. She was a remarkable leader. But she did it with grace. I feel like when I say grace, you would know what I’m talking about. Truly God’s grace. She lived her life with grace. And I don’t think I’ve lived with grace, but I sure try. And that’s what all of her children and grandchildren, and I think other people in the family, aspire to try and do that. 

Her influence on Duke University was enormous. I often tell Vince [Vincent] Price this — he’s the first president of Duke University that did not know my grandmother, going back to William Preston Few. I mean, my grandmother matriculated at Duke when she was 16 in 1936. Dr. Few was the president at the time. So truly, every president of Duke University had known my grandmother until Vince, until she died in [2012]. That’s saying something. Her influence on each of those presidents was significant, because it was that family connection that Dick Brodhead spoke about, that was driven largely by Mary Semans. 

And, you know, her interests went far beyond Duke. She was a patron of the arts. She and her husband helped found the UNC School of the Arts. They were patrons of both the performing arts and the visual arts. And she made many, many anonymous gifts in and around Durham. She was a true citizen of the world, but she was really a citizen of Durham — and she loved Durham. She loved New York too, which is where she grew up, but she loved Durham and took great pride in Durham’s evolution post-tobacco. She took great pride in the improving relationship between the University and Durham, which had initiated when she was still Chair of the Duke Endowment — the Duke-Durham neighborhood partnership — which today is part of the University’s mission, frankly. So, she loved Durham, she loved the University, and she loved bringing the two together. And she was inseparable from all of it, frankly. 

And as I said, that’s a tough legacy to live in, and to live up to [laughs]. But she was a woman of love, and we loved her. She loved her family. She taught us all a lot. She taught us to be passionate about Duke University, about the Duke Endowment, about the mission, about the family’s philanthropic legacy, about the arts, about people. She was active in the Civil Rights Movement through the 1950s [and] 1960s into the 1970s. As I said, she was the first woman to serve as Chair of the Duke Endowment. She was the first woman Mayor Pro Tem of Durham in the 1950s, when she was only in her early 30s. And she had four little girls, before she had her other three children. So she was a force. She was a big personality. But we were blessed to have her. [crosstalk] Yeah, she was teeny tiny. We were all blessed to have her in our lives as long as we did.

LP  45:43  

It’s wonderful. Talking about passion, what makes you most proud of Duke? I know you’re an alum of the other school as well, the Tarheels [laughs], but also Duke. What makes you most proud?

CL  46:00  

Funny story about that. I had been accepted to come to Duke, and I was all in. And I was a nominee for the Morehead-Cain scholarship at Chapel Hill, and I end up getting the scholarship. So I call my grandmother and I’m like, “Okay, well I’ve received it, but I have to let the Morehead committee know before I even get to interview for the A.B. Duke [scholarship].” Because my A.B. Duke interview was two weeks later. And she said, “Doesn’t matter. You have to accept the Morehead.” And I’m there on the telephone with her and I’m like, “Really?” And she [said], “You can always come back to Duke. But this will give you a perspective of North Carolina that you wouldn’t otherwise get if you were at Duke.” And she loved the University of North Carolina. So anyway, that’s how I ended up at Chapel Hill. She basically told me I needed to go. I was able to come back and redeem myself a bit in my family’s eyes, at least, and go to the [Duke] law school. 

So why am I so passionate about Duke University? It flowed from her, for sure. But this institution has achieved so much. And I’m so proud of it. I know others are proud of it. I’m so proud of it. But it can do so much more. It can be so much more. And I believe with the support of the Duke Endowment, with the loyal support of a remarkable alumni base, and with strong strategic leadership from both the Board and the Administration, Duke University — the sky is the limit for this school. And that’s what makes me so excited. I mean, think about how great it is today. It’s going to be even greater. And I think it has the potential to be everything Mr. Duke wanted. Everything Ben Duke and Washington Duke ever envisioned for this school. It can be that. 

But I think — and you and I have talked about this before — I think one of the things that sets Duke apart from its peers is the fact that the Chapel is in the middle of the campus, and it is a part of Duke’s daily life. If you go to some of its peer institutions, I’ll name a few — Princeton, Yale, [University of] Chicago — [they] have great churches that are not central to what happens on campus every day. But the Chapel that James B. Duke envisioned — that I think his father would be very proud of, by the way, as a devout Methodist — that Chapel is central to everything that happens at Duke almost every day. Because it’s just right there. And no one walking along Abele Quad can miss it. And the Divinity School is where it is because it’s the conscience of the University. And it is a critical part of what Mr. Duke envisioned for Duke University. And when you read about the schools that he wanted to be part of the University, Duke has achieved all of those goals and the Divinity School is an important part of it. Without the chapel, we would be a different institution and, I think, a lesser institution.

LP  50:10  

I’m in full agreement. I wonder why [laughs].

CL  50:12  

That’s exactly right, Dean of the Chapel [laughs].

LP  50:21  

Let’s close with this question. Thinking about the University and the next century, what are some of your hopes for Duke?

CL  50:34  

Well, as I said earlier, I think I would want the same thing that James B. Duke and Ben Duke would want. I want Duke to keep pushing forward. I would hope that Duke would never become timid, or rest on its laurels, as being a great university. I think we have to continue to work hard to recruit the best faculty. I would love us to have more Nobel Laureates. You know, let’s think big. I want us to have the best students, but students of character. One of the things that Mr. Duke says in the Indenture is he wanted his students, and the faculty, and the administration, to be persons of the highest character. I think it makes a difference. I want Duke to continue to achieve greatness in academics and research. I also want Duke to achieve on the athletic field, I’ll confess. I’m a fan [laughs]. If you boil all that down to one thing, I want Duke to be the best it can possibly be. Now, that sounds too squishy. But Duke is going to have significant resources — from the Duke Endowment, from alumni, from its own endowment and resources. Duke is going to have plenty of resources. Let’s use them wisely. And let’s be the truly great institution that we can be. Let’s not squander those resources or squander the moment when we know that we’re on the cusp of, I think, even more greatness as an institution. I believe it. 

Higher education, I think, is entering a phase where it’s going to struggle. Particularly smaller private schools. Duke is not in that world anymore. Used to be. Not anymore. Duke is an elite institution in every sense of the word, both when you look at its faculty, when you look at its students, when you look at the achievement of all of its constituencies. But Duke is also elite in terms of resources, and it can use those resources to become even greater and surpass even what we see today. It has a chance to be even more special. By the way, I think Duke is special, because it’s a happy place. So, when you think about Duke in the 1970s, 1980s, even into the 1990s — and it started to change then — but Duke was often the second, maybe even the third choice, of some of the students that ultimately came to Duke. [Students who] might have wanted to go to Princeton or Harvard or Yale or Stanford or Northwestern, or whatever the school. It’s quite different today. And it makes a palpable difference on the campus. The kids that are at Duke today want to be here and they’re happy to be here. This is where they want to be. And the fact that they want to be here, it makes a huge difference. And I think building on that happiness gives the University a sense of joy that will enable us to launch into our second century. I think it’s pretty remarkable. 

LP  55:07  

It is. Thanks so much, Charlie, for that kind of historical perspective on the Endowment, the University, the family — and thank you for your passion. 

CL  55:23

It’s truly my pleasure.

LP  55:25

And for highlighting the sense of joy that I think Duke gives all of us. 

CL  55:30

It gives all of us joy. 

LP  55:31

It really does. 

CL  55:33

Thanks very much. I appreciate it.