Centennial Oral Histories:
Rick Wagoner

00:00:18:14 – 00:00:39:19

Ann Pelham

Hello, I’m Ann Pelham, and I’m pleased to be here today with [G. Richard] Rick Wagoner, a 

Duke leader who’s going to talk to us about his experiences and what Duke has meant to him. He is a leader because he chaired the Duke Board of Trustees. Served for many, many years. Was even a commencement speaker in 2007 and was awarded the University Medal in 2021.

00:00:39:21 – 00:00:51:20

Ann Pelham

Thank you, Rick, for being here. You were almost a Blue Devil from birth. Your father went to Duke. Could you talk about the significance the University has played in your life, and what it’s meant professionally as well?

00:00:51:22 – 00:01:13:07

Rick Wagoner 

Sure, Ann. It’s great to be here with you today, by the way. Really looking forward to this. My dad went to Duke after serving in the military. So he was an older student and married to my mom. And so they were both Duke fans from the beginning. So I wouldn’t say the first word I learned to speak was Duke, but it was in the first 100, I’m sure.

00:01:13:09 – 00:01:33:08

Rick Wagoner 

And actually, as I think back, some of my very earliest personal memories are walking into Wallace Wade Stadium to see football games, and things like that. So I think it’s fair to say that we had a good degree of brainwashing from the beginning. And I’ve been a Duke fan since you start being a sport fan and following them closely.

00:01:33:08 – 00:01:53:22

Rick Wagoner 

So it’s been an integral part of our life. My sister also went to Duke. She says, my much younger sister. Our older sister did not, and my parents were [of the mind that], “You guys choose where you want to go.” I think that would have been okay for anywhere, unless it was UNC. That would have probably been a problem for any of us.

00:01:53:22 – 00:02:12:21

Rick Wagoner 

But when it came time for me to choose where to go, I had looked at some other schools. I had some athletic scholarship opportunities. But in the end, it was a pretty easy call to come here. And I just had a great experience here. It’s been so much fun since then to continue the relationship.

00:02:12:21 – 00:02:23:05

Rick Wagoner 

My wife actually is a graduate, too. We met here. And so that’s probably the best thing that has ever happened to me, Duke-related. But it’s been fun to continue our relationship with Duke over these many years.

00:02:23:08 – 00:02:25:18

Ann Pelham

You managed to walk on the basketball team, is that right?

00:02:25:19 – 00:02:32:11

Rick Wagoner 

I did, I did. Back in the old days. It was easier to do that then. But it was fun. Fun memories. 

00:02:32:13 – 00:02:37:03

Ann Pelham

And I think you had other family members who also came to Duke?

00:02:37:05 – 00:03:05:21

Rick Wagoner 

Yes. Besides my dad, my wife Kathy, my sister Judy and her husband Dave, and our three sons graduated in 2006, 2008, and 2012. They were also brainwashed from the beginning. And I told them they could go anywhere in the world to college except for UNC and I would pay for it. So we got that straight. But they’re big fans, and it’s been a real — all the family, when there’s a Duke game on we’re WhatsApp-ing or texting.

00:03:05:22 – 00:03:13:20

Rick Wagoner 

And so it’s been a real thing that our family is sort of united around the relationship with Duke. It’s been a real pleasure. A lot of fun.

00:03:13:22 – 00:03:33:11

Ann Pelham

That’s great. You’ve had a remarkable professional career, but you somehow have always managed to make time for Duke. And we all appreciate that. I know one thing that you’ve sort of become a specialist on is being part of searches. Could you talk about some of those, in the past and more recently?

00:03:33:13 – 00:04:00:05

Rick Wagoner 

Yeah. So I’ve really enjoyed the opportunity to do that. The first one I was on was the search committee that [Robert] Bob Steel chaired — must have been in 2001 — that ended up resulting in the hiring of [Duke President Richard] Dick Brodhead. And what I found is that I learned so much about the University, about administrative practices, and met so many great people — obviously all Duke people in one way or another.

00:04:00:07 – 00:04:28:04

Rick Wagoner 

And I thought that was a great experience. I have to admit, Bob sort of sold me a bit of a bill of goods in that he said it wouldn’t take much time. Which was wrong. But it was time well-spent that I enjoyed. And then subsequently, after I’d finished at my term on the Board of Trustees, Dick Brodhead asked me would I chair the search committee which ultimately chose [Eugene] Gene Washington as the then-chancellor of Health Affairs. And once again, great group of people.

00:04:28:04 – 00:04:48:07

Rick Wagoner 

We had a lot of fun. I came away so impressed that sort of any all-star in the field of medicine would talk to us about who we should think about choosing. A number were very interested in it, and we ended up choosing, I think, just a wonderful person who’s a good friend today and I think did just a marvelous job.

00:04:48:07 – 00:05:10:07

Rick Wagoner 

Gene has just retired, as you know. And then, during the pandemic, [Duke President Vincent] Vince [Price] called and asked would I chair the search committee to replace Kevin White, the vice president [and] director of Athletics. And that was a little different because we were all Zooming these meetings. But again, great committee. This time with more representation from the athletic staff and coaches which was fun.

00:05:10:09 – 00:05:33:10

Rick Wagoner 

We did the rigorous process you would expect and talked to everybody out there we should talk to, but realized the right choice was one right here at home — Nina King. Nina at that point was Kevin’s number two and had broad responsibilities. And, you know, Kevin was an unbelievable athletic director and, in a way, sort of a dean of the athletic directors for the entire country.

00:05:33:10 – 00:05:56:06

Rick Wagoner 

So many of the current athletic directors were mentored by him. And it was clear [as] I think he would tell you that, he’s so proud of how Nina has developed. And she’s smart. She’s highly energetic. She’s a go-getter. And she really has a vision for college athletics. Which in today’s world, you know, massive changes.

00:05:56:06 – 00:06:06:15

Rick Wagoner 

We’re just very fortunate to have someone like her. So every one of these searches has been a lot of fun. Not just for what you learn and the people that are eventually selected, but the people you get to work with.

00:06:06:17 – 00:06:20:11

Ann Pelham

I think that’s right. Let’s just go back to Dick Brodhead. You had a seat at the table in the very beginning. What was it about him that convinced the search committee he was going to be an excellent ninth president of Duke University?

00:06:20:13 – 00:06:43:00

Rick Wagoner 

Well, I think, first of all, [it was] big shoes to fill. Because Nan Keohane was a favorite of all of us and did a remarkable job. But, Dick, literally from the first time the search committee met him, I thought there was good chemistry. You know, his style is he’s an academician, for sure, but he’s got a style that is very disarming.

00:06:43:00 – 00:07:03:12

Rick Wagoner 

He’s really good at engaging with people across all walks of life. And I think the committee just felt comfortable with him from the beginning. And we did have other excellent candidates. But I think we chose well there. And I think if you look at Dick’s tenure, he did some really terrific things here.

00:07:03:12 – 00:07:06:23

Rick Wagoner 

And I know he loved it. So I felt that was really a good match.

00:07:06:23 – 00:07:19:20

Ann Pelham

Yes. He had a run of 13 years. You must have gotten it right. He also, for me, was a great storyteller. And I don’t know — did that come across in the very beginning? He got better and better at it every year.

00:07:20:00 – 00:07:48:17

Rick Wagoner 

So, I probably don’t recall completely, Ann, that from the beginning, but I think you’re right. And what I remember is we had a chance at the Board to hear him talk about different topics, introduce people. You could see him talk to physicists, people from the arts, community experts, athletics. And he would introduce people and talk in a way that was so specific to the circumstance

00:07:48:17 – 00:08:00:10

Rick Wagoner 

and to them. It was just a gift that he had. And as you say, stories, literary quotes. But all fitting right to that person, that situation. A remarkable gift and made it fun to be around him for sure.

00:08:00:13 – 00:08:13:09

Ann Pelham

And I think his favorite were stories about students that he had met, and he could use those in groups to illustrate why Duke was important. It was the students. He had a lot of fun with them, I think.

00:08:13:14 – 00:08:35:22

Rick Wagoner 

Amen. So our middle son was a freshman, and they were at some event with President Brodhead. And so Dick just looks into the audience and says, “Well, stand up, what’s your name?” And it turned out in the first couple of weeks of class this young gentleman had acquired the name Pop Tart. For no particular reason, as best I can tell.

00:08:36:00 – 00:08:53:19

Rick Wagoner 

And so he didn’t say his name. All of his friends yelled out “Pop Tart!” And you can only imagine how Dick was able to have a good time with that, make him feel comfortable. But then, like, two years later — we knew this young man — he passes Dick on the quad, and Dick says, “How’s it going, Pop Tart?”

00:08:53:21 – 00:08:55:02

Rick Wagoner 

So you can see why..

00:08:55:04 – 00:08:55:17

Ann Pelham

Yeah. It’s a pretty good memory. 

00:08:55:19 – 00:08:59:06

Rick Wagoner 

You can see why the students loved him. It’s really great.

00:08:59:08 – 00:09:27:14

Ann Pelham

Let’s just stop on Nina for just a minute. The opportunity there was terrific, to have someone internally. But you had to go through a pretty intense process. And unlike most of the other searches, it had to be done in a hurry. And you had to be secretive. There wasn’t the long slow [move] around the country to interview different people.

00:09:27:16 – 00:09:39:00

Ann Pelham

Could you talk a little bit about that, or what you remember of the role of the search committee, sort of [having] the opportunity to talk with a lot of people very quickly.

00:09:39:02 – 00:10:01:21

Rick Wagoner 

Yeah. It was. There was a certain amount of time pressure, for a variety of reasons. You know, I would say that, we sort of started out from a recognition — which I guess is obvious — [that] this is a very difficult job to search for. Because Duke has got a virtually unique position of excellence in Division I Athletics pretty much across the board.

00:10:01:23 – 00:10:30:13

Rick Wagoner 

And obviously the academic excellence. There’re not many schools that have both at that level. And that has ramifications for who you want to choose as your athletic director. The other thing is — it may surprise you to hear, but as we learned in the process — in a number of places, the athletics are sort of somewhat off to the side, run by themselves, with relatively little interaction with other parts of the university. Or much less, let’s put it that way.

00:10:30:15 – 00:10:48:18

Rick Wagoner 

Whereas at Duke, that’s really not the case. So many of our students are student athletes. Everything is sort of located right here on our two campuses. And so we need an athletic director that [understands that] it’s not like you’re kind of running your own show out there. You’re part of the leadership of the university.

00:10:48:23 – 00:11:10:12

Rick Wagoner 

So when you look at those aspects of it, we did talk to a broad range of people that are well-respected in the field. But I came away with the view that there weren’t a whole bunch of people that had actually had the training and the skills to be able to do this job in the way that President Price wanted it done, in the way that Kevin [had done] it.

00:11:10:14 – 00:11:19:22

Rick Wagoner 

And so I think we were able to focus in on Nina in the appropriate time frame. And fortunately, she accepted. And here she is and doing a great job.

00:11:19:23 – 00:11:44:14

Ann Pelham

She has definitely proven you right. Recently the university did a study of the experiences that student athletes have, to make sure that they were as good and sometimes better, turned out, sometimes better than the average student. And Nina was right front and center with that, making sure that her team cooperated and that she contributed.

00:11:44:14 – 00:12:18:11

Ann Pelham

And I heard her make a presentation about it. It was, I think, a very important role for her to play. So you’re exactly right. She is part of the university. She’s not over to the side and understands that Athletics is an integral part of Duke. And not something separate. I think more and more it becomes clear as the chaos in collegiate athletics is all around us, she is continuing to keep the University and its role in front of mind.

00:12:18:13 – 00:12:45:16

Rick Wagoner 

Yeah, I think that the complexity of that position has really mushroomed — and Kevin would be the first to tell you this too — over the last ten years. And with so many big changes going on now, you certainly need someone who knows sports [and] can interact with coaches and athletes. But you need somebody who’s smart and can think ahead and imagine how this world is going to play out.

00:12:45:18 – 00:12:55:09

Rick Wagoner 

And so I think we’re very fortunate to have someone like Nina who brings all of those skills to the table, and then, as you said, relates so well to the student athletes and the coaches as well.

00:12:55:09 – 00:13:04:23

Ann Pelham

She wants the students to be students first and athletes second, even as that gets sometimes harder every day,

00:13:04:23 – 00:13:26:04

Ann Pelham

So you currently chair the Board of Advisors for Duke Kunshan [University] which is the joint venture that Duke has in China. Could you talk about that role, and also how Duke got to that place. Because you’re a good historian of the long process.

00:13:26:06 – 00:13:55:16

Rick Wagoner 

So this is, to me, one of the best examples. I think some of the most famous words in Duke history are Terry Sanford’s about “outrageous ambitions.” This was really a tremendous initiative, a tremendous bet. It started probably about 15 years ago when discussions commenced with the Board. And it also says something interesting about Duke, because it started as an initiative of the Business School. And that’s where conversations started.

00:13:55:16 – 00:14:32:04

Rick Wagoner 

And then it evolved [into] “Hey, there are other opportunities within the University that could be considered.” And so Peter Lange, then the provost, took the leadership. And so we sort of started with a vision that would be graduate programs. We needed partners in China that we could get to a common mindset on. And so just a tremendous amount of work in advance selecting partners, where we ended up with two great university partners, Wuhan [University] and the city of Kunshan [have] been just unbelievably great.

00:14:32:06 – 00:14:50:19

Rick Wagoner 

We really built a university from the ground up. And I mean, literally. There was nothing there the first time I went to the site. It was a cleared site for construction. And Duke designed the university, the layout of the buildings, etc. Had a lot of support locally, obviously, in the construction of them.

00:14:50:19 – 00:15:11:06

Rick Wagoner 

And so they built it, and then they started filling it up with graduate students. Then about probably 5 or 6 years ago, we had our first undergraduate class admitted. And their students, I think I read the other day, [there are] something like 76 countries [represented] in the undergraduate program now. The kids are very, 

00:15:11:06 – 00:15:32:18

Rick Wagoner 

they’re like Duke kids. They’re just doing this in Kunshan, China. There’s been a lot of interaction between Duke faculty. The students at DKU spend a semester or a year, one of the two, a semester here at Duke. Which is good, I think, on both sides. You know, when you have a business plan [and] you lay it out for ten years and it never happens

00:15:32:18 – 00:16:03:05

Rick Wagoner 

like you think it’s going to happen because other stuff happens around it. And certainly DKU has had those issues. [The] Covid [pandemic] probably could have put that school more off track than most, because we’re young [and] we have students from so many countries. There are issues of getting visas in and out [of the country]. And this was a case where Duke — and kudos to President Price and the whole team here — really responded in ways, good and creative ways, to make sure that the students could get the experiences they wanted and kind of work around the Covid situation.

00:16:03:07 – 00:16:26:23

Rick Wagoner 

And so it feels like to me things are going better and better there. Meanwhile, the overlay of the geopolitical situation has evolved. The relationships between China and the US are not quite as friendly feeling as they were when we started this discussion 15 years ago. But I think DKU has navigated through that very well.

00:16:27:01 – 00:16:51:00

Rick Wagoner 

And I think the focus at DKU is [to] particularly work on topics that are of mutual interest, or in fact [of] global interest — global topics — for the betterment of both societies and the world. And by focusing on positive areas of interest, we can hopefully, you know, contribute to an appropriate relationship more broadly.

00:16:51:02 – 00:17:02:16

Ann Pelham

And the campus that was a piece of dirt at the beginning, I think you’ve probably seen the second segment of [by now]. Could you just describe what it looks like now?

00:17:02:22 – 00:17:23:00

Rick Wagoner 

So actually, I haven’t seen the second half because I haven’t been over since Covid. I’m going next month, actually. And I can’t wait to see the second part of it. But just the first part was an amazing and beautiful campus. And I understand that the addition really fills it out and makes it quite unique.

00:17:23:00 – 00:17:45:02

Rick Wagoner 

In fact, I visited a number of universities in China, and you go there and you go, “Oh, this looks completely different. It feels different.” And so in that sense, it’s quite a feat. And again, I can’t put enough emphasis [on] how the city of Kunshan has been so supportive, including tremendously supportive financially. That could not have been built without their financial support.

00:17:45:02 – 00:18:10:10

Rick Wagoner 

So, it is a good example of partnerships and working together. You know, Duke had some fairly tough demands, too, with regard to the faculty. All faculty appointments had to be approved by the Duke faculty. Those sorts of things, which initially sounded difficult, have worked out very well. And there’s been great engagement by a number of faculty members here, and certainly a lot of the senior administrators.

00:18:10:10 – 00:18:33:12

Rick Wagoner 

So, a good example. And the same should be said also of our Wuhan colleagues and Kunshan colleagues. It’s been an interesting exercise in people working together. And it’s not just the first team that did that. Now we have a different provost, we have a different leader that Duke nominates, we have a different representative from Wuhan.

00:18:33:12 – 00:18:50:21

Rick Wagoner 

We have had changes in the leadership of the city. So this has, so far, really shown that it could withstand a lot of changes. Which is good and which is really what that part of Duke has to do if they’re going to continue on their path of success, which I’m very bullish on.

00:18:50:23 – 00:19:20:08

Ann Pelham

Well, it sounds like Duke Kunshan has stayed true to its course despite the changes around it. And the students from China have continued to come as well. They’re coming to the closest thing to a US-style undergraduate education, that’s close by, anyway. But can you talk about the language spoken on campus, and the goal of the school from an academic perspective.

00:19:20:08 – 00:19:20:13

Ann Pelham

[inaudible]

00:19:20:13 – 00:19:46:19

Rick Wagoner 

So, the students are multilingual. So everybody can talk to each other in English. Then you have a significant portion of the students who have another native language other than English and Chinese. And then obviously about half of the students — in fact, there’s a specific guideline of the maximum number of students from China because the applications from Chinese students,

00:19:46:19 – 00:20:09:11

Rick Wagoner 

the number is huge. So, they have a fair balance. And I would say I think every student who I’ve met during my visits there over the years who’s not a native speaker of Chinese, they learn it there. Which is, I think, a tremendous advantage for them in the future world, too.

00:20:09:17 – 00:20:37:09

Rick Wagoner 

But the students are in some ways like the students here, right? They’re all as smart as they can be. They’re doing research. They’re playing sports. It seems like they’re going 100 miles an hour, and they seem like they’re having a great time doing it, too. [They] build good friendships, lasting relationships. By the way, the placement of the students has been excellent for the first couple classes. Many going to graduate programs at the most prestigious universities around the world.

00:20:37:11 – 00:20:49:12

Rick Wagoner 

Excellent for those that want to go into the workforce. Excellent placement. So the value of a DKU education is showing itself, from the early days. Which is important in the end, if that’s going to be a..

00:20:49:12 – 00:20:50:00

Speaker 1

successful.

00:20:50:01 – 00:20:51:05

Ann Pelham

One Rhodes Scholar, if I remember?

00:20:51:06 – 00:20:53:12

Rick Wagoner 

That’s correct. Yes.

00:20:53:14 – 00:20:59:04

Ann Pelham

So you’re very confident about the future for Duke Kunshan?

00:20:59:06 – 00:21:17:05

Rick Wagoner 

I think the future is very bright. I am conscious that there are always going to be issues, and there are some in this case that are a little bit out of our control. But let’s be honest, Duke University lives in circumstances sometimes that are important to us, that are out of our control, and we all did that in business

00:21:17:05 – 00:21:50:18

Rick Wagoner 

and if you have good leadership you figure out how to adapt to that. And there’s so much support. Our advisory board is some portion of generally US-space CEOs, and sort-of comparable people from China. Maybe a few more entrepreneurs. The Chinese contingent on the advisory board is so excited about the future, and so excited to see an institution like this in China doing what they’re doing, that it tells me that the base of support that we have is really, really good.

00:21:50:20 – 00:22:09:09

Ann Pelham

Well, you are a former CEO of General Motors, and chair. When you are with those fellow CEOs, is it the power of critical thinking and the aspects of this approach to undergraduate education that appeals to them?

00:22:09:11 – 00:22:37:10

Rick Wagoner 

I think it’s more of a US-style education, and that’s rare there. Not that there aren’t, by the way, some excellent educational institutions in China. There certainly are. But I think they’re attracted to that, and almost by the nature of the people that we invite to join, I think they’re inclined to be thinking that this kind of initiative is — I mean, all of them think it’s very important for China that this succeeds.

00:22:37:10 – 00:23:01:16

Rick Wagoner 

I think it gives some view that this focus on critical thinking [and] things like that is a commodity that they’d like to see more of in higher education in China. You know, one other thing I should mention is when they created the undergraduate vision for DKU, they didn’t just take, “Oh, here’s the way we structure the undergraduate programs everywhere

00:23:01:16 – 00:23:33:03

Rick Wagoner 

and at Duke.” [We focused on thinking about] if we were starting a university today with these kinds of goals, how would we structure our undergraduate education? And so they have some elements that are actually quite unique, and I would say leading-edge, and seem to be working very well. What that reminded me of — and you may recall back when the medical school entered into the joint venture with the [National] University of Singapore and asking the University of Singapore for a med school there, de novo.

00:23:33:05 – 00:23:57:17

Rick Wagoner 

And it’s been unbelievably successful. And Duke is now in its third or fourth renewal of five-year agreements to a mutual support. But when that school was created, they thought about medical education and how they could do it more efficiently. And some of their ideas were so successful, they were actually exported back to medical schools in the US, including Duke.

00:23:57:17 – 00:24:14:21

Rick Wagoner 

And then some of those concepts were actually used in undergraduate education at Duke and in other graduate fields. So I think that always stuck in my mind as a reason why [we] do this stuff. Some of this stuff is hard. It was hard to do Duke Kunshan. We can’t fool ourselves.

00:24:15:01 – 00:24:34:06

Rick Wagoner 

So why would you do that? You do it because there’s an opportunity not only to address an important global need, to expand the footprint of Duke, [but also because] there’s an opportunity for Duke to benefit and learn from that, too. And I think the National University of Singapore [partnership] with Duke [Duke-NUS Medical School], that lesson really stuck in my mind.

00:24:34:06 – 00:24:40:11

Rick Wagoner 

I thought that really showed that there’s value in doing things differently and being willing to take a little risk.

00:24:40:17 – 00:24:57:00

Ann Pelham

One thing that I remember is the idea of the flipped classroom, where you study first and then when you come together everyone is ready for a conversation or a discussion, and to question some of the things that they’ve read.

00:24:57:02 – 00:25:31:01

Rick Wagoner 

I mean, it was interesting to me because you remember the presentations on that. So, the student views the lecture before class, then they come in and they have a quiz. And if there’s an area where most students didn’t understand right, the first effort is for other students to explain it to them. And the concept there is that students actually might learn better from other students sometimes. But for the professors this puts a lot of pressure [on], because you don’t go in with your game plan and pull out the speech or, you know, your lecture from the last 20 years. You’ve got to kind of be adept.

00:25:31:01 – 00:25:50:02

Rick Wagoner 

and [think] okay, if this happens, this is my contribution to the class. If this happens, and so on. It sort of changes the lives of some of the most important people in our university — the professors. But again, from all reports that I’ve heard, it has worked well, and I think a significant majority of the professors have enjoyed the challenge.

00:25:50:02 – 00:25:51:16

Rick Wagoner 

So really good.

00:25:51:16 – 00:25:56:01

Ann Pelham

That’s a great description that you gave. I appreciate that.

00:25:56:01 – 00:26:15:12

Ann Pelham

And at Duke Kunshan, the opportunity, as I recall, for the curriculum was to not be bound by preset departments and areas of study, but to loosen up and be interdisciplinary from the start. Is that fair?

00:26:15:13 – 00:26:39:07

Rick Wagoner 

Yeah, I think it is. There’re some things that in the academic concept have to be respected, but that doesn’t mean you have to do everything the way you’ve always done, or the way you’ve done it for the last 50 years. So I do think it was a chance for innovation. I think that was welcomed by the faculty that was attracted [to come] there, and the administrators. And I think they did a good job.

00:26:39:07 – 00:26:46:00

Rick Wagoner 

And I suspect if we were talking to them today, they would be telling you, “Oh, here’s what we can do to make that better down the road, too.”

00:26:46:02 – 00:26:55:04

Ann Pelham

And Duke is looking at our undergraduate curriculum once again, and we’ll find out whether there are some lessons learned that end up applied to that effort.

00:26:55:10 – 00:26:57:21

Rick Wagoner 

Great. I’ll watch with interest.

00:26:57:23 – 00:27:31:21

Ann Pelham

So, you helped find Gene Washington, but you’ve also been a member of the Duke University Health System Board — I think the marketing name is Duke Health, but formally it’s still DUHS — for many, many years, and have seen really quite a lot of change. Certainly, the integration between the Private Diagnostic Clinic and the Health System and the School of Medicine and the University has been a huge adjustment.

00:27:31:21 – 00:27:50:00

Ann Pelham

And then, of course, Covid affected the Hospital, and caused some disruption as well as some challenges and some improvements that everyone welcomed at the end of the day. Could you talk a little bit about what you’ve seen there from your seat at DUHS?

00:27:50:02 – 00:28:12:03

Rick Wagoner 

It’s really, really interesting. Just to step back a little bit and set the stage. In my view, the Health System and the [School of Medicine] have been integral parts of developing and building this great Duke brand over the years. And a lot of people’s primary, and in some cases only, interaction with Duke is through going to the hospital there.

00:28:12:05 – 00:28:31:15

Rick Wagoner 

And I’ve had people come up to me — my old football coach from high school came up to me at one point when I was in Richmond and he said, “You know, my wife had a very severe medical problem. We were sent down to Duke. Boy, were we treated well. It was great.” And so it really brought home to me that this is an important part of the University as a whole.

00:28:31:17 – 00:28:56:22

Rick Wagoner 

It’s also a huge part. I mean, to the point now that the revenues in the Health System are bigger than the rest of the University. So it’s important financially. And then over the years, a very good model was built where the financial returns from the Health System were largely shared with the School of Medicine to support their very extensive and very successful research agenda.

00:28:56:23 – 00:29:19:02

Rick Wagoner 

So this model worked great for years. Then Covid came along. And unlike a lot of other businesses or institutions, they did not have the option at the hospitals to [say], “Oh, let’s just close down the business and lay off our people.” They had more demand for their business. And of course, they did a terrific job at a very difficult time.

00:29:19:02 – 00:29:45:23

Rick Wagoner 

And everyone has the greatest respect and admiration for that. But it was a tremendous hit financially for all health systems. And Duke, who traditionally had been one of the more profitable health systems, suffered equally. And so now we’re digging out of that, but there have been some long-term impacts. And, so we’re not back to where we need to be, but there’s hard work and there’s notable progress.

00:29:46:01 – 00:30:04:22

Rick Wagoner 

A key element in all this, what also went along, is what you mentioned, which is this merger of what was formerly the Private Diagnostics Clinic [PDC]. A lot of people really wouldn’t know this, but that was created basically when the Health System was created as a way to attract physicians from other parts of the country, I think particularly from [Johns] Hopkins, 

00:30:04:22 – 00:30:24:23

Rick Wagoner 

and to be able to compensate them not at a university level, but in a way that was appropriate for the practice of medicine. And so that built up. But that was an independent entity. So many of our doctors were at that point not employees of the Health System, but rather worked through the PDC. And that worked very well for many years.

00:30:24:23 – 00:30:48:10

Rick Wagoner 

There’s a lot of good reasons to have had it that way. But as we said, the health care world is changing and there’s a strong view that higher degree of integration is really required integration. And so this process of putting the two together, the PDC and the Health System, actually has been discussed a number of times over the years unsuccessfully.

00:30:48:10 – 00:31:18:20

Rick Wagoner 

And this is where I have to give a lot of people, but particularly Gene Washington, a huge amount of credit for the way he raised the topic, talked about issues, listened to concerns from PDC members, patiently worked through those, creatively addressed them. And so we finally — the merger was approved with a very high approving vote for PDC members. Which was very important, because to do a merger and have, you know, half the people or 49% of [your practicing] doctors [not very happy], this is not good.

00:31:18:20 – 00:31:37:04

Rick Wagoner 

So we wanted to do it in a way that people were enthusiastic about. And so that’s underway now. This is sort of the first year of that operating. I think it’s coming together ahead of plan. You know, any big merger has a big planning team and a lot of work to do, and you don’t want to get stuff behind schedule.

00:31:37:04 – 00:32:03:03

Rick Wagoner 

And I think they’ve done a good job of that. And over time we think that’s going to create a lot of value for the communities we serve, for the kind of services we can offer, and hopefully we’ll create some efficiencies in the way we operate to help us repair the bottom line. Because in the end, we need the Health System to be appropriately profitable because it’s such a big part of the University’s income and balance sheet.

00:32:03:05 – 00:32:24:03

Rick Wagoner 

But it also is such a critical funding support source for our medical research. And that’s been a key part of — the leading-edge development at Duke has been those sorts of things. So we really have an important job to try to get that on track. And I think the leadership team there is doing a great job.

00:32:24:03 – 00:32:26:15

Rick Wagoner 

But it’s hard work, and there’s plenty ahead of us.

00:32:26:17 – 00:32:47:08

Ann Pelham

The restructuring took the Chancellor role and eliminated it and created a CEO, Craig Albanese. And then Mary Klotman moved into, sort of up the ladder a bit, keeping her role as dean of the Medical School. They have a partnership now. How do you feel like that’s going?

00:32:47:13 – 00:33:09:00

Rick Wagoner 

I think it’s working well. I think it was a move that — historically we have had the chancellors who oversaw both. Which was somewhat unusual from the academic side, because obviously all other deans report to the provost. So it was a little unusual, but a good way to run at that time. I think the reality is the health care industry is changing.

00:33:09:02 – 00:33:31:09

Rick Wagoner 

We have to think about the business side of it and how we can be competitive. By the way, we’re very fortunate to be in a great market for healthcare. It’s growing, there’s great demand for our services. Our capabilities are appreciated. But everybody else is trying to get in here to steal our customers and our revenue base.

00:33:31:11 – 00:34:00:03

Rick Wagoner 

And so we really have to run that — with all appropriate respect to the Duke name and our educational mission, we still have to run it with more of a business edge. And so I think splitting the two roles makes sense, but it does require and it is getting a lot of cooperation between Mary and Craig because this won’t work [otherwise].

00:34:00:03 – 00:34:14:14

Rick Wagoner 

And there’s a great mutual interest between the two. So, it is a different structure. But this was a call that Vince thought about as Gene announced his retirement. Thought harder about it. He took a lot of input on it. And I think it’s right. I think it’s the right way to go.

00:34:14:16 – 00:34:19:21

Ann Pelham

And the DUHS board meets several times a year. So you’re still coming?

00:34:19:23 – 00:34:42:06

Rick Wagoner 

Right. We meet five times a year. Yes. Let me just say, by the way, I think one of the great things about Duke –sort of telescoping up — is they respect the traditions of the past, but they evolve. They evolve faster in many cases than other universities of their stature. I think it’s an advantage of Duke.

00:34:42:08 – 00:35:00:05

Rick Wagoner 

We don’t go off and do crazy things for no good reason. But this change in how we oversee healthcare and the medical education and research — you know, [people said] “You have a structure that works, so why don’t you just keep doing it.” And I think Vince very thoughtfully said, “Look, the times are different. It’s time to evolve that.”

00:35:00:05 – 00:35:16:09

Rick Wagoner 

And I’m sure if we sat here for 30 minutes, we could come up with ten other examples where Duke has thought about, “Well, the way we’ve done it is really good, but is there a better way to do it?” And then, how do you get everybody who’s used to doing it the old way [to be] comfortable with the new way?

00:35:16:09 – 00:35:35:12

Rick Wagoner 

And that’s not easy in any setting [including] business. Probably particularly difficult in academia. But Duke has been pretty good at that. You know, you’re creating Duke Kunshan University. How do you convince the faculty here that you can hire the right kind of faculty there? And Peter Lange just couldn’t come in and say, “I’m provost, we’re doing it.” He says, “Okay, here’s what we want to do.

00:35:35:12 – 00:35:51:14

Rick Wagoner 

Here’s why. Concerns? Ideas? Let’s trade.” And you end up with a good consensus to a new direction, or a different direction. And I think Duke has been particularly characterized by these kinds of initiatives over the years.

00:35:51:16 – 00:36:06:03

Ann Pelham

Thank you. I think in the context of the [DUHS], that’s an important observation. Because it was an opportunity to make a change, even though it was risky in some ways. But let’s hope it continues to work out.

00:36:06:05 – 00:36:08:05

Rick Wagoner 

Amen.

00:36:08:07 – 00:36:20:16

Ann Pelham

Covid was a challenge for the university as well. You were sitting on the outside to a degree there, but how did you perceive what was going on, and how do you think we did? Or Duke did?

00:36:20:18 – 00:36:46:14

Rick Wagoner 

I would say, so Covid was clearly a headline event that all universities dealt with. My sense is Duke handled it as well as anybody. And it was almost one of these situations that you can’t win but you can lose. And I think some universities sort of came out with their reputations a little bit dinged up, that maybe they didn’t handle it as well.

00:36:46:14 – 00:37:06:18

Rick Wagoner 

And I think that Duke avoided that. And I think they did some creative things. One thing that Duke does well, too, [is that] they try to see around the curve. They put their thinking into, “Okay, what could happen, how would we react.” And so my take is [that], obviously in an extremely difficult situation, I think Vince and team did a great job.

00:37:06:23 – 00:37:29:19

Rick Wagoner 

A good example is back to the DKU discussion. So we have some significant portion, I think it’s 30% or 40% of the student body, [that] is not from China. There’re all sorts of visa restrictions, and you can’t get in or out due to Covid. What do you do with those students? And so kind of on the fly, Dick and team were able to find a way to accommodate them, have them attend here.

00:37:29:21 – 00:37:49:15

Rick Wagoner 

I met a number of these students through my nieces, and they felt [that] the students that were in that program, you couldn’t tell [if] they were DKU or not. I mean, they just seemed like normal Duke students. And they felt that way and were treated that way. And then they came up, I think the next year, with the innovative idea of having them gather in — was in Barcelona? — for their year there.

00:37:49:19 – 00:38:08:18

Rick Wagoner 

And now they’re finally able to get in and out of China. But I thought that was a good example of [how] this [was] a tough situation, and it could really blow up and be a disaster. And instead, it was, with a lot of sweat and peddling under the water, sort of [a] calm, good reaction. And everything worked out as well as you could have hoped, under difficult circumstances.

00:38:08:21 – 00:38:11:22

Ann Pelham

Improvising with smarts, something like

00:38:11:22 – 00:38:12:04

Ann Pelham

that.

00:38:12:04 – 00:38:22:04

Rick Wagoner 

And willing to do things a little different, and creative thinking, and getting ideas from different people. All that sort of stuff, I think typifies the way things tend to be done here at Duke.

00:38:22:06 – 00:38:41:08

Ann Pelham

Just going to your term on the Board of Trustees, your two terms, and your role as chair and vice chair before that. Are there particular moments there or issues that came up that you’d be interested in talking about?

00:38:41:10 – 00:39:04:09

Rick Wagoner 

Sort of a fun one, which was a really interesting [case] and you really had to think about it and what to do, was the DKU decision. To do that and then to implement it. So that was sort of on the fun side. On the challenging side was the famous Lacrosse matter, which, you know, was just so difficult.

00:39:04:09 – 00:39:25:00

Rick Wagoner 

And, again, this was one of those situations. There was no way that really anybody involved in that was going to win. But it was difficult. You had to make judgments daily and hourly. You would have people with the benefit of looking back on it the next day or a week later critiquing [and saying] “That was a bad call.”

00:39:25:00 – 00:39:48:20

Rick Wagoner 

But they’ve got, now, a lot more information that the decision-makers didn’t have. And so I thought, again, it was a difficult decision, I don’t think there was a way — or a difficult situation. In the end it worked out, I think maybe as well as it could have. But obviously caused some tender feelings amongst some of our alumni and parents.

00:39:48:20 – 00:40:12:12

Rick Wagoner 

And you understand that. So were there any wins out of it? Well, maybe one. So as part of that, the Lacrosse coach left. And they hired John Danowski, who — you know John — but he’s not only a good coach, he’s truly an educator. And he loves being around young people and supporting them and developing [them]. And so I think he’s done a wonderful job with the program.

00:40:12:17 – 00:40:43:02

Rick Wagoner 

My sense is [he is] a little more integrated into the Duke community. And so even in a really difficult situation, complete no win, we did get something that’s been helpful to Duke out of it. Probably would have liked to have been able to approach that in the interim in a little different way. And I think those two examples just show that if we want to continue this arc of excellence at Duke, we need to keep thinking of new ideas and innovating and taking risks.

00:40:43:04 – 00:41:04:15

Rick Wagoner 

But we also need to be able to handle the difficult things that inevitably will come up for any institution, any university, any business. And, I would say since I’ve observed it — certainly Covid was a difficult situation. I think the Lacrosse [case] on the margin was in some sense a little more difficult because it was sort of Duke against the world.

00:41:04:15 – 00:41:24:05

Rick Wagoner 

And every aspect of society kind of had a reason to get into it. But I thought Dick did as well as he could have. I thought the support that was given to him was appropriate. And, yeah, I mean, [I’m] sorry that it happened, but you have to deal with it when it happens.

00:41:24:07 – 00:41:48:04

Ann Pelham

And in dealing with it — you’ve served on a lot of boards. And I think there’s a sense that if a board is collegial, and people are familiar with each other, they are able to handle what in some ways is a crisis like that better. And I know you’ve been on many boards other than Duke’s and continue to serve on boards.

00:41:48:04 – 00:41:54:10

Ann Pelham

Could you talk a little bit about that role and the challenges of creating that kind of environment on a board?

00:41:54:12 – 00:42:14:19

Rick Wagoner 

So, I think that’s a great point. And I would say, if you asked me to talk about Duke culture, one of the top 3 or 4 things I’d mention was a culture of collegiality. Now, sometimes that can be a negative if everybody’s just getting along with each other. But Duke combines we expect excellence [with] we expect collegiality and collaboration.

00:42:14:21 – 00:42:33:03

Rick Wagoner 

It’s important for the Board to model that. I know the chairs in front of me that I observed, [Peter] Pete Nicholas, and then Bob Steel and [Daniel] Dan Blue, set that example. And I tried to continue it. The Board of Trustees is a great institution for Duke.

00:42:33:03 – 00:43:01:21

Rick Wagoner 

It’s big. And so how do you manage — our corporate boards that you would be used to, they might be 8 to 12 people. You would never find a corporate board with 36 people. Admittedly the functions are a little different. But I do think we got upon a way of operating where people felt like they could express their views, were sensitive to the input from others, were sensitive to the fact that, hey, we have a lot of things we need to cover, and we only have a certain amount of time.

00:43:01:21 – 00:43:20:21

Rick Wagoner 

So just because I have something to say doesn’t mean I should say it if somebody else has already said it. You know that’s not true in every other board, right? The famous line is, “Everything that can be said has been said, it’s just that not everybody has said it yet.” And I would say that we really didn’t have that at Duke.

00:43:20:21 – 00:43:45:23

Rick Wagoner 

But I think it started where you started, this culture of collaboration. But it wasn’t just at the Board. I think it’s broader, throughout Duke. And I think it’s a key part of our culture and important that we keep that going forward, too. And I’m not saying other academic institutions, I know it’s not necessarily “knives out” at everybody. But still, it’s almost [that] here

00:43:45:23 – 00:44:04:12

Rick Wagoner 

there’s an enthusiasm to cooperate. Enthusiasm to do something between the Medical School and the Engineering School. Other places, yeah, they do it because the provost is saying to do something, maybe. But here, our culture is really part of the reason that Duke’s been on this tremendous run.

00:44:04:14 – 00:44:24:05

Ann Pelham

Thank you. The opportunity we’re here today to celebrate is 100 years of Duke University. Are there particular people in the history that you think of, in the past and today, that have made a particularly significant impact on this place?

00:44:24:07 – 00:44:31:01

Rick Wagoner 

You know, it’s kind of sad. You talk about [how] it’s 100 years. I’ve been around for most of it. Holy cow. That’s really bad. But, anyway, it’s been fun to watch.

00:44:31:01 – 00:44:33:02

Ann Pelham

You graduated in 1975?

00:44:33:02 – 00:44:49:06

Rick Wagoner 

I did. I did. But I mean, I was watching Duke from whenever you could start reading the sports page, so early 1960s. So I’ve been following Duke closely. And because of my parents’ interest, I would hear about what [was] going on with the other stuff. So I really feel like I’ve had a chance to observe this.

00:44:49:08 – 00:44:50:18

Ann Pelham

Half the time.

00:44:50:18 – 00:44:52:06

Rick Wagoner 

Half the time. Yeah.

00:44:52:09 – 00:44:53:08

Ann Pelham

You’ve been an adult.

00:44:53:08 – 00:45:13:14

Rick Wagoner 

[And] for the last 30 years. [I’ve observed] really closely. It’s been great. And I feel privileged to have had that ringside seat. So I’m not as familiar with the leaders before, sort of our era, But anybody who talks about leadership at Duke has to talk about Terry Sanford, obviously, who had a vision.

00:45:13:16 – 00:45:39:23

Rick Wagoner 

I think to be honest, his predecessors had a lot of the similar vision. But Terry had a great way of stating it in this, you know, outrageous ambition [phrase]. And he was willing to make big bets and really got behind building the endowment. And I think set us on a track not only of results but of expectations that really have been followed, again, not without a bump in the road from time to time, but substantively followed.

00:45:39:23 – 00:45:59:11

Rick Wagoner 

And so it’s put the trajectory of Duke — if other elites are on this [gestures] trajectory, Duke feels like it’s on this [gestures] trajectory. I mean, it’s just amazing. And so on the subject of strong leaders, I’ve been fortunate, [as] we talked about, to be on the Board for parts of the tenure of three presidents.

00:45:59:13 – 00:46:19:08

Rick Wagoner 

So Nan Keohane, Dick Brodhead, and now Vince Price. And they all have made big moves. I mean, each one has something or more than one thing that if you look back in their tenure, they took bets that then look big. And they were able to bring them to fruition in most-all cases.

00:46:19:10 – 00:46:45:17

Rick Wagoner 

And so I think we’ve really benefited from strong leadership at the presidency. I would say all three were, in my view, quite different styles of leadership. And I think that says something about the process at Duke of selecting leaders. That we are able to look at the current situation and think about, “Okay, we want to bring in, or have the next leader in that position to share the Duke values that we think are so important.

00:46:45:23 – 00:47:13:01

Rick Wagoner 

But we need to move in this direction or that. So we need them to bring that new expertise or insight in.” I think that’s been done well with the presidency, at least during the years I’ve observed it. But it’s beyond that. I mean, if you look at the dean we’ve had, the chancellors of a health system, the athletic leadership, the coaches. It’s a characteristic of this place. Combining keeping the culture

00:47:13:01 – 00:47:31:01

Rick Wagoner 

but bringing in the new ideas when we need them. And then garnering the support behind them is, again, a characteristic of Duke. And I think our leaders, starting with the three presidents that I mentioned four with Terry Sanford, but I just think about the leaders of the Health System over the years. All of them were outstanding.

00:47:31:03 – 00:47:51:18

Rick Wagoner 

Ralph Snyderman had a little different approach than Victor. Gene had a different approach than Victor. And now Craig is a different time, different approach. Mary, on her part, is different. But I think that’s great. That’s evolving and trying to stay ahead of the time. Again, for having been around it so long

00:47:51:20 – 00:48:13:05

Rick Wagoner 

we’ve had a lot of turnover in our deans positions. But you get a chance to talk to one of these deans at a dinner, inevitably [they are] very smart. Very fun to be around. You learn a lot from them. It’s not surprising that they do a good job leading their respective schools. And Duke doesn’t succeed because this big Duke succeeds.

00:48:13:06 – 00:48:23:16

Rick Wagoner 

It’s all of these sub-elements. Whether it’s a breakthrough in engineering, or medicine, or sports. Those are pieces that add up to this overall Duke brand that we all benefit from.

00:48:23:18 – 00:48:34:09

Ann Pelham

So if you’re looking ahead to the next century, which we won’t get to see most of, what are your hopes for Duke in that next century?

00:48:34:11 – 00:48:58:14

Rick Wagoner 

What I hope is that they keep going. So what do I mean by that? I think this, call it [an] arc of excellence — where we just keep raising the stature, the brand by virtue of what we do — is so important. And so I think this [is] outrageous ambitions. We can’t be happy with where we are.

00:48:58:14 – 00:49:25:02

Rick Wagoner 

There’s so much more that Duke could do. So I hope that theme continues, and I hope the culture continues. And I’m not saying the culture shouldn’t evolve or develop, but I do think this collegiality, this expectation of excellence, this ability to develop talent yourself but also welcome in people from outside the institution who bring the new perspective you need.

00:49:25:04 – 00:49:49:22

Rick Wagoner 

We need to keep that going. And even make it better, ideally. But the aspects of global education could be interesting. The ability for Duke to contribute, not just in the communities we’re in, we could certainly always do more of that and we value that. But in the country, globally. We have a chance to really raise things up to the next level.

00:49:49:22 – 00:50:15:08

Rick Wagoner 

And even recently you’ve seen some of our most prestigious academic institutions under attack. Duke can distinguish itself against this background where higher education — which, I remember when we were on the board we did a survey and some ridiculous number [like] 95% of the people had the highest possible rating for the US higher education system, and particularly for the elite universities.

00:50:15:10 – 00:50:39:21

Rick Wagoner 

That number has gone down quite a bit, for a variety of reasons. Everything gets so politicized these days. But I think Duke has done a good job of positioning itself, taking positions which have enabled us to keep the focus on what we’re here to do. Which is to educate, contribute to society through our healthcare system, and entertain through great sports.

00:50:40:00 – 00:50:49:05

Rick Wagoner 

Let’s keep our focus on that. I think it’s helped us build our reputation at a time when that isn’t very easy in higher education.

00:50:49:07 – 00:50:55:06

Ann Pelham

Thank you. Thank you for your time and your service to Duke all these years. It’s been a pleasure to talk to you.

00:50:55:09 – 00:50:57:02

Rick Wagoner 

Thanks, Ann. It’s been a lot of fun. Thank you so much.

00:50:57:03 – 00:50:58:03

Ann Pelham Thank you.